# Should parents be trained an licensed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332 "2016-07-30T22:15:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/81 "2016-08-01T19:55:20Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > The issue I guess would be raising the children. Ok, we have new parameters. Anyone can breed, anyone can reproduce. If the new parents can’t meet certain standards or licensing requirements, they face having their newborn seized and raised in another environment. Aside from “licensing”, we already have that, though the performance bar is extremely low. Infants must be fed, clothed, vaccinated, not subject to physical abuse, or they might be taken by some CFS agency. I think the OP proposition is not entirely baseless, but it needs to be judged on what the standards actually are, and how much consensus can be gathered around them. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/82 "2016-08-01T20:02:50Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > It would be cheaper and easier to educate people on birth control, also to educate people on just what it means to have a kid. > > Education seems better than some arbitrary test. People seem to be for it, but I don’t think they understand what it truly means to enact such a thing (or if it’s possible). I personally like the idea of tax breaks for parents who take pre-natal baby care, and ongoing parenting classes during their kids’ childhoods. No reason those classes couldn’t be free either. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/83 "2016-08-01T20:15:30Z")
Everyone always assumes that their parent would pass the licensing exam for such absurd fascist proposals. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/84 "2016-08-01T20:58:37Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Ok, we have new parameters. Anyone can breed, anyone can reproduce. > > If the new parents can’t meet certain standards or licensing requirements, they face having their newborn seized and raised in another environment. > > Aside from “licensing”, we already have that, though the performance bar is extremely low. Infants must be fed, clothed, vaccinated, not subject to physical abuse, or they might be taken by some CFS agency. > > I think the OP proposition is not entirely baseless, but it needs to be judged on what the standards actually are, and how much consensus can be gathered around them. Actually if they can’t pass the exam or the background check and psychological profile then their child would be taken. They would have to take it again if they want children. But considering that most of these are unplanned, there wouldn’t be enough “certified” parents to take them in. Not to mention how impractical a yearly inspections are. It would just be easier to improve education and birth control. As was stated earlier, it’s just an impossible and impractical dream. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/85 "2016-08-01T20:59:48Z")
And another point made is that most parenting is trial an error. It’s unclear how effective preparation will be when they actually have to deal with a child. ---
**Author:** ![PoppaSan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/poppasan/32/189_2.png) [@PoppaSan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoppaSan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/86 "2016-08-01T21:07:45Z")
From OP link: > [@](#): > > What harm would come from screening married couples to ascertain if they are qualified to raise children? So only married couples would have to be screened? What do you plan on doing with the one-night-stand children? > [@](#): > > More than 101,000 children wait for permanent homes in the United States. Most are school-aged or older. Many have emotional, physical, or learning disabilities. There are brothers and sisters who need to stay together. More than half of the children come from minority cultures. > Caucasian children under five years old often have severe medical disabilities or have older brothers and sisters. African American children, Latino children, and children of mixed heritage cover a wider age range and include healthy infants. The majority are boys. > Most children waiting for adoption live in foster or group homes because their parents were unable to care for them. Often, personal and family problems made it impossible for the parents to maintain a home for their children. Some of these children have been abused, neglected or abandoned. from [cite](http://www.adopt.org/faqs) The healthy infants yet not adoptable already and you plan on dropping even more into this system? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/87 "2016-08-01T21:26:01Z")
In response to that, as quoted from my link (sorry for the length): This may sound like a daunting task, and of course your diseased societies will tell you that it is an impossible feat to accomplish. The Truth of the matter is, this type of complete reform would be quite easy to achieve, as long as a society wanted to do it. Yes, in a large country a few billion dollars would have to be spent to build the necessary child-rearing enclaves throughout the nation, as well as to fund the hiring of expert staff and Primary Caretakers. And yet every economy could, if it was sanely structured, absorb this cost, and the return on investment, as far as less crime, increased productivity, better health, less medical costs, etc…, would easily make up for the entire initial expense and in fact result in an economic windfall, within 50-100 years of implementation. Properly structured and developed, orphanages and group homes would be heavenly, blissful environments for children, and the malevolent societal labels of “orphanage” and “group home” would be replaced with a proper term, such as Child Nurturing Facility. Children would grow up surrounded and enveloped with love, from every adult they came into contact with. Despite the facilities being quite large, and the children being allowed to interact with all other children and adults, there would be dozens, if not hundreds of Primary Caretakers at each facility, each one specifically assigned to devote most of their time to nurturing a specific, small group of children. Therefore, all children will have consistent, ongoing, nurturing contact with a few adults, throughout most or all of their childhoods, and be able to form personal, one-on-one bonds with these Primary Caretakers that would be much stronger, on average, than the bonds that could be formed with a biological creator. Each and every employee of these facilities will be required to take and pass the Mandatory Parental Competency Test. The way I see it, even the members of the maintenance crews that are hired to work at these Child Nurturing Facilities, would be required to pass the Competency Tests. Each and every adult that the children come into any sort of regular contact with, inside these Child Nurturing Facilities, will have passed the Competency Test. Every child would be surrounded by love, competence, and caring. If by some rare fluke an abusive adult somehow managed to gain access to a child at these Facilities, the child would know, unquestionably, that he or she could inform and seek aid from any other adult at the facility, even the janitor/custodian, and the result would be that the child would be rescued, saved, and protected from further harm. Within a few decades of the implementation of this Child Nurturing Facility structure, jobs within these facilities would be the most coveted jobs within the nation. The salaries would not even need to be much higher than “ordinary” job salaries, in order to attract tons of applicants, and only the best of the best would be hired, all of whom having passed the Competency Test with flying colors. But even so, all employees at these facilities should receive a “premium” salary, in order to both initially attract and then keep them happily employed there, for many years. Children do benefit greatly from being able to establish long-term bonds with a fairly small number of adults, that remain consistently positive figures within their daily lives, throughout most or all of their childhood. Therefore, society would have an obligation to do it’s very best to make sure that each competent employee who is hired to work at these Child Nurturing Facilities, receives enough benefits, including financial perks, to make it unlikely that the employee will want to quit the job. In addition to financial benefits, the entire social structure would be such that every employee at these Facilities would be labeled as a “hero”, a true celebrity, someone who is performing the most valuable task that exists within society, protecting, helping, molding the lives of helpless children. The maintenance man/janitor lucky enough to be hired to work at these Facilities would not only earn a 20-25% salary premium over all other maintenance men, they would also receive the best guaranteed health, life, and retirement insurance package of any janitor in the nation, and they would be true celebrities, publicly honored by the media, societal leaders, and the entire cultural system, for holding the most valuable, important garbage-handling/maintenance job that exists within the nation. Under this properly structured system, children will be filled with pride over the fact that they do not have “parents” and that they do live in Child Nurturing Facilities. If anything, they would be far more likely to genially tease and feel sorry for other children who live in “private homes” with only 1 or 2 Primary Caretakers. They would be proud of the fact that they have not only 3-6 adults who serve them on a daily basis as Primary Caretakers, but they also have an entire community, at least dozens and perhaps hundreds of adults, whose primary job it is to protect, help, and nurture them. Although to me that sounds batshit impossible. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/88 "2016-08-01T22:08:07Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Simply put, while the idea might be good, it seems like a nightmare to implement. Staff, standards, money, resources. > > But then there is the matter of freedom. Telling people what they can and can’t do, when do the limits they impose stop. > > Like I said, a nightmare to implement. Yep, and also developing standards for licensure. Are parents going to qualify for a license primarily on the basis of completing parenting coursework and passing exams in parenting skills, or will other factors be considered? For example, can people be denied a license due to genetic disorders, or even genetic “risk factors”? Will there be minimum requirements in terms of income and/or formal educational level? Will licenses be recognized across jurisdictions? For example, if a person is a properly licensed parent under Pennsylvania law but does not qualify for a New Jersey license due to bad DNA, does that mean that the parent is restricted from entering New Jersey with their child, or that they are at risk of having their child taken away if they cross the state line? ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/89 "2016-08-01T22:13:12Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Yep, and also developing standards for licensure. Are parents going to qualify for a license primarily on the basis of completing parenting coursework and passing exams in parenting skills, or will other factors be considered? For example, can people be denied a license due to genetic disorders, or even genetic “risk factors”? Will there be minimum requirements in terms of income and/or formal educational level? Will licenses be recognized across jurisdictions? For example, if a person is a properly licensed parent under Pennsylvania law but does not qualify for a New Jersey license due to bad DNA, does that mean that the parent is restricted from entering New Jersey with their child, or that they are at risk of having their child taken away if they cross the state line? Also see my previous post about orphanages. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/90 "2016-08-01T22:16:22Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Ok, we have new parameters. Anyone can breed, anyone can reproduce. > > If the new parents can’t meet certain standards or licensing requirements, they face having their newborn seized and raised in another environment. > > Aside from “licensing”, we already have that, though the performance bar is extremely low. Infants must be fed, clothed, vaccinated, not subject to physical abuse, or they might be taken by some CFS agency. > > I think the OP proposition is not entirely baseless, but it needs to be judged on what the standards actually are, and how much consensus can be gathered around them. Right, we are not in a “Wild West” type world where people can do anything they want to their children with impunity. What we do have is a world where parental fitness evaluations are generally done only when there has been a specific allegation of parental unworthiness, and generally specific facts must be proved before a tribunal for things to go forward. It protects people’s rights from arbitrary restriction while also providing a way for truly incompetent parents to be found out and restricted. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/91 "2016-08-01T23:12:42Z")
You might have a point there. People are too focused on how it might seem right morally without understanding how logistically impossible it is. I realize that unlike a drivers license, people aren’t that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/92 "2016-08-02T04:27:19Z")
And what about the point I made about the orphanages? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/93 "2016-08-02T05:28:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I hate the very idea of eugenics, but am in favour of some fair mechanism of limiting the number of kids we produce, to the point of negative population growth… > > Best model I could come up with was an economic one - every adult gets the right to have some fraction - say, 3/4 - of a kid.So any couple, neither of whom have bred yet, gets to have one kid just by virtue of that, and still has half a “kid credit”. One quarter kid each. They can trade those on some sort of open market. Or in private transactions - like, say, a voluntarily childless person could _give_ all their credits to their sibling to have more nieces and nephews. Or just get the cash from strangers. But such a plan would rely on some outside-imposed birth control or criminalizing freebirths, and I don’t want either of those. But at least such a model lessens the whole eugenics aspect of population control most other models seem to have, and leaves a path open to having more than one kid if you must. And the numbers can be tweaked - 1.25 kids/person if you want population growth, 0.333… if you really want threesomes to be a thing 🙂 I don’t know what you’re political orientation is, but that creates two major problems: 1. It throws reproductive rights out the window 2. It makes it impossible to fund entitlements. Entitlements rely on a growing population and the system breaks down at even slow population growth, much less negative. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/94 "2016-08-02T05:59:23Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > And another point made is that most parenting is trial an error. It’s unclear how effective preparation will be when they actually have to deal with a child. Most life is trial and error. My mother is a trained pedagogist, she was heavily involved in the local Parenting School when we were little, and she’s among the runner-ups for Worst Mother of my School Year, many years over. Partly because the pedagogy she applied involved expecting children to behave as the Manual indicated they would, and not as the child itself would. From making me wail in hunger for several hours every day because “at this age, she should be feeding every four hours” (the pediatrician told her “for God’s sake and that of everybody around the poor child, feed her when she’s hungry!”), to getting angry that I had learned to read quicker than expected, to refusing necessary medical treatment for years and responding to any complaints with “stop lying!” (complaints including bad eyesight, ingrown warts in right foot which may be at least part of the reason that leg is 2" shorter than the other and abusive teachers, including a sexually-abusive one). She was considered a wonderful mother by everybody but her children and our classmates. Because hey, she was a trained pedagogist. And heavily involved in the Parenting School! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/95 "2016-08-02T12:41:39Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > And what about the point I made about the orphanages? Spending a lot of money on an orphanage doesn’t guarantee that it will be great, any more than spending a lot of money on a school guarantees that it will be a great school, and for many of the same reasons. Most parents care about their children, child abuse incidents notwithstanding. Very few people care as much about the children of strangers to anything like the same degree. This is no matter how much you pay them. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/96 "2016-08-02T16:13:50Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > So you want the government to decide who has the right to reproduce? And what should be the punishment for people who have unauthorized children? You, of course, being a right-thinking individual, assume the people in power are also right-thinking, but what happens when the big ugly OTHERS gain that same power, and prevent YOU from having kids? > > Please remind me, exactly who won World War II? This is the obvious answer to the OP. Though it would be amusing to see society’s children go back and forth from vegan to Christian and back again with the shifting political pendulum. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/97 "2016-08-02T16:20:46Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > No… Children are faaaaaar more important than cars. > > Considering the massive overpopulation of the human race Can you demonstrate this to be an actual thing? > [@](#): > > That idea should scare the shit out of anyone Yet somehow the human race has thrived and actually improved itself and the conditions under which individuals live. How about that. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/98 "2016-08-02T21:06:32Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Most life is trial and error. > > My mother is a trained pedagogist, she was heavily involved in the local Parenting School when we were little, and she’s among the runner-ups for Worst Mother of my School Year, many years over. Partly because the pedagogy she applied involved expecting children to behave as the Manual indicated they would, and not as the child itself would. From making me wail in hunger for several hours every day because “at this age, she should be feeding every four hours” (the pediatrician told her “for God’s sake and that of everybody around the poor child, feed her when she’s hungry!”), to getting angry that I had learned to read quicker than expected, to refusing necessary medical treatment for years and responding to any complaints with “stop lying!”… This is a big reason why a licensing scheme wouldn’t work. This kind of parent would be the one who could take all the classes, pass all the exams, and know exactly what to say to psychological evaluators, but would would be completely incompetent in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/99 "2016-08-02T21:36:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Can you demonstrate this to be an actual thing? > Yet somehow the human race has thrived and actually improved itself and the conditions under which individuals live. How about that. The data actually shows that overpopulation isn’t a problem, more the environment ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332/100 "2016-08-02T21:42:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Spending a lot of money on an orphanage doesn’t guarantee that it will be great, any more than spending a lot of money on a school guarantees that it will be a great school, and for many of the same reasons. > > Most parents care about their children, child abuse incidents notwithstanding. Very few people care as much about the children of strangers to anything like the same degree. This is no matter how much you pay them. > > Regards, > Shodan Please actually read my post about the orphanages [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-be-trained-an-licensed/761332.md?page=6)