# Should parents work at keeping their teen kids virgin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2001, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-work-at-keeping-their-teen-kids-virgin/65320 "2001-05-13T15:55:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2001, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-work-at-keeping-their-teen-kids-virgin/65320/61 "2001-05-20T15:45:27Z")
**cmkeller:** \*The expectation that one will control one’s urges until marriage is the same for all. It’s really not all that difficult, because social dating doesn’t exist in the Orthodox Jewish world. Casual friendships between members of the opposite sex, which lead to temptations of non-marital sex, just…aren’t there. It’s a lot easier than it sounds to one who hadn’t lived it.\* As I understand it (and my father’s parents used to be Orthodox but that’s as close as I get to it, so I’m somewhat removed from the tradition as currently practiced), **any** friendships, casual or deep, between (non-related) members of opposite sexes are discouraged, as is business socializing and any other personal interaction with members of the opposite sex outside one’s own family. I certainly don’t dispute the right of anybody to follow religious doctrine concerning sexual behavior, nor do I deny that some people who do so have happy and fulfilled personal lives. I just think it’s worth stressing the particular conditions in this case that make total celibacy till marriage realistically possible as a cultural requirement: - Encouragement of early marriage, usually within a few years of attaining legal adulthood. - Heavy emphasis on a particular type of monogamous heterosexual marriage as divinely mandated, with a corresponding weight of disapproval for other types of relationships. - Strong social segregation of the sexes outside of family relationships in order to discourage premarital or extramarital sexual attraction, thus discouraging or forbidding any cross-gender friendships, mentoring, or partnership, even of a non-sexual sort. - Rigid gender roles that separate the official spheres of activity for men and women as much as possible, so that they won’t be placed in work situations requiring them to interact with members of the opposite sex. (Here in particular my information may be quite out of date, so don’t hesitate to correct me if I’m behind the times.) I think that the reason most people who don’t share your religious convictions are somewhat repelled by this approach to preserving virginity till marriage isn’t that we don’t think it would be easy—on the contrary, it seems designed to make lifelong monogamy as easy as possible by effectively removing all alternatives. It’s that we don’t think it would be worth it. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2001, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-work-at-keeping-their-teen-kids-virgin/65320/62 "2001-05-21T04:47:40Z")
Kimstu: > [@](#): > > any friendships, casual or deep, Right; what I meant to say was “_even_ casual relationships…” [Details of aspects of Orthodox Jewish upbringing snipped…] > [@](#): > > I think that the reason most people who don’t share your religious convictions are somewhat repelled by this approach to preserving virginity till marriage isn’t that we don’t think it would be easy—on the contrary, it seems designed to make lifelong monogamy as easy as possible by effectively removing all alternatives. It’s that we don’t think it would be worth it. Well, I agree with you that it’s quite a bit to do to ensure that one’s children are raised a certain way…heck, separate sets of dishes for milk and meat are a pain in the neck too. However, if a parent felt it was a worthy goal, it’s doable…something that the following comments seem to doubt: DeadAngel: > [@](#): > > I’m 16, and seriously, if a teen wants to have sex, there isn’t much you’re going to be able to do to stop them. Grok: > [@](#): > > If two people decide they’re going to do it, that’s it. > > Might as well attempt to hold back the tide. CheezedOff: (I see he’s been banned; I guess I’ll never know where those Jewish brothels are now…) > [@](#): > > Parents working at keeping their kids virginal? > > HA-HA-HA-HA WOOOO-HOOOO! Rachelle: > [@](#): > > I don’t intend to try to keep my kids virgins until they’re married. It’s just not realistic. Freedom: > [@](#): > > Boys will be boys, so sooner or later they are going to be in a situation without my guidance. I hope they are not too young when they get started, but I have no real expectation that they are going to stay virgins until they are married. My point all along has been that if you feel it’s worthwhile, it’s certainly an achievable goal, and it’s one that will not cause long-term harm to their sexual self-images. Yes, it takes hands-on (no masturbation jokes, please) parenting to do it, parenting that starts well before puberty. But it was comments of the above sort that I have been writing in opposition to. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2001, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-work-at-keeping-their-teen-kids-virgin/65320/63 "2001-05-21T04:50:50Z")
Oh, and BTW: the gender roles aren’t all that rigid anymore. Plenty of Orthodox Jewish women in the workplace, with the blessings of the Rabbinate…gives them the ability to support their husbands dedication to all-day Torah study (if their husband is that sort of man). Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2001, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-work-at-keeping-their-teen-kids-virgin/65320/64 "2001-05-21T16:33:21Z")
**cmk:** \*My point all along has been that if you feel it’s worthwhile, it’s certainly an achievable goal, and it’s one that will not cause long-term harm to their sexual self-images. Yes, it takes hands-on (no masturbation jokes, please) parenting to do it, parenting that starts well before puberty. \* Yes, but my point was that it also takes a lot more: namely, intense social pressure and a very restrictive culture of gender relations within their entire (strongly self-identified, largely closed) kinship/ethnic/religious community. It’s not just your particular parenting principles, it’s the whole tradition of Orthodox Judaism that is heavily conservative and conformist (and I mean no insult whatsoever by those terms, even if they don’t describe my own mores: I’m just anthropologizing) about gender relations in general and sexual behavior in particular. Without such restrictions opposing the influence of our individualist, highly mobile, and heavily sexualized popular culture, I think “keeping kids virgin till marriage” (ugly phrase that, with its connotations of manipulating the breeding stock; I don’t mind parents wishing to do it but I wish we could think of a nicer way to describe it) is a lot harder, even if it’s what the parents want and intend to do. In that context, I think the incredulity of the other posters you quote is pretty much justified. (And thanks for the update about women in the workplace, btw!) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2001, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-work-at-keeping-their-teen-kids-virgin/65320/65 "2001-05-21T16:59:00Z")
I’ve got it! “Continuing the tradition of premarital celibacy in the present generation.” More emphasis on the human and cultural values and less on direct control of others’ sexuality. Yes? (Wow, I think I just made teen sexual abstinence P.C. Yikes! :)) ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2001, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-work-at-keeping-their-teen-kids-virgin/65320/66 "2001-05-22T04:26:23Z")
Kimstu: > [@](#): > > Yes, but my point was that it also takes a lot more: namely, intense social pressure and a very restrictive culture of gender relations within their entire (strongly self-identified, largely closed) kinship/ethnic/religious community. It’s not just your particular parenting principles, it’s the whole tradition of Orthodox Judaism that is heavily conservative and conformist (and I mean no insult whatsoever by those terms, even if they don’t describe my own mores: I’m just anthropologizing) about gender relations in general and sexual behavior in particular. I disagree. Granted, the Orthodox Jewish way of accomplishing this end involves these elements, but the essence of it all is pretty basic parenting: emphasize the principles early so that it’s the foundation the kids build on rather than the walls they try to break down, and keep temptation far away. The particulars can be up to the individual set of parents, but in principle, these two elements are both possible and highly successful, if the parents consider this goal a priority. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2001, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-work-at-keeping-their-teen-kids-virgin/65320/67 "2001-05-22T05:37:40Z")
Good point, cmkeller. I’d just like to add that my church is very big on chastity, but does not have the same traditions kimtsu mentions. I think it has a pretty good success rate, though I certainly don’t have any numbers. FWIW, in my personal experience, many of my friends have waited until marraige (or are waiting–and some do wind up waiting until their 30’s). A few haven’t, but they are in the minority. Anyway, my point is that although my church discourages early dating, it in no way keeps girls and boys apart otherwise. And it still seems to work, and we even have happy, well-adjusted marriages. Teaching good principles and talking with your kids is a much better way to get them to wait than separation of the sexes, although that can’t hurt (and I mean no disrespect to your traditions, cmkeller; you seem to feel the same?). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-parents-work-at-keeping-their-teen-kids-virgin/65320.md?page=3)