# Should people avoid consuming art they enjoy from an artist who they dislike or disagree with on a personal level? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2023, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721 "2023-02-13T17:17:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/281 "2023-02-18T23:39:44Z")
…yeah I have, and what it comes down to is if you enjoy it, then enjoy it. It doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/282 "2023-02-18T23:41:11Z")
So, in your view, Sterling is wrong in the video in the OP? If you like the Harry Potter universe then just play the new game if you want? No consideration for the morality of doing so? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/283 "2023-02-18T23:43:30Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So, in your view, Sterling is wrong in the video in the OP? …Steph was not wrong in the video. You asked the question “Do I have to despise it now?” No you don’t. You don’t need to despise it now. And I’m pretty sure if Steph were here right now they would say exactly the same thing. That you are conflating the message of that video with “do I have to despise it now” shows me that you _still_ don’t understand what that video was all about. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/284 "2023-02-18T23:45:14Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > That you are conflating the message of that video with “do I have to despise it now” shows me that you _still_ don’t understand what that video was all about. I think the video would say I cannot be trusted to support Jewish people because I spent money on a book written by someone who hated Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/285 "2023-02-18T23:47:40Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I think the video would say I am an antisemite who cannot be trusted to support Jewish people. …yeah, this ain’t it. If James and the Giant Peach was one of the books that made you love reading, and if you still enjoy reading it now, then that’s okay. Not that you need my permission to love it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/286 "2023-02-18T23:51:55Z")
Would you say it is ok to buy the book (“James and the Giant Peach”) for a child today? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/287 "2023-02-18T23:53:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Would you say it is ok to buy the book (James and the Giant Peach) for a child today? … :: shrugs :: I really don’t care? Buy what you want? I’m not going to stop you? Stop worrying about what other people think and just do what you like. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2023, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/288 "2023-02-18T23:59:16Z")
Ok… @Jophiel said they payed the game “Hogwarts Legacy”. Per Sterling’s take, should you consider @Jophiel not an ally when it comes to trans issues? Per your take? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/289 "2023-02-19T00:14:37Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Per Sterling’s take, should you consider @Jophiel not an ally when it comes to trans issues? …how about instead of Steph’s take, we use my take, since I’m in this thread, since I have talked prominently about allyship in this thread, and I actually have a position on this? Jophiel is a long-standing member on these boards that I’ve interacted with before and would like to think know well enough to know that yes, they support trans rights. But allyship is a complicated thing. That’s something you need to understand. There isn’t a line. And I’m not trans: so I can’t speak for trans people here. It isn’t my place to say if someone is an ally or not. What Steph was really talking about in the video, and they call it out specifically, are the streamers and the review sites that had the opportunity to listen to voices from the trans community, and decided to ignore them. Who during pride month will change their Facebook cover photos to the pride flag and will loudly proclaim that the stand with the trans community: but couldn’t do something as simple as not play a single video game. I’m sure Steph gives as much as a damn about what Jophiel did in the privacy of their own home as I do as in…not very much. This isn’t a black-and-white issue. Its clouded in shades of grey. If you want to enjoy James and the Giant Peach: then enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/290 "2023-02-19T00:24:16Z")
> [@InternetLegend](#): > > But if I see, say, Louis CK do a comedy routine that I might once have enjoyed, I can’t forget that this is a man who used his position to coerce unwilling women into watching him masturbate, and that kills any humor for me. But what about when CK literally talks about the creepy stuff and brings humor into it? (And, at this point, I do think it’s relevant to note that there are degrees of “horrible”, and that CK’s behavior doesn’t rise to the level of rape or murder). Because that’s what he did - and he did so in a way that made him the subject of the jokes (I.e. it wasn’t “I’m defiant” or “this was unfair” but rather, “now everybody knows my kink”). I’m reminded of when Hugh Grant was caught with a prostitute and then went on the Tonight Show to get asked “what the hell were you thinking?” Does the public embarrassment/shame of “owning” your bad thing at all ameliorate the distaste for the conduct? (And again, I think this really can only be discussed in the context of deplorable - as opposed to violent or injurious- behavior) ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/291 "2023-02-19T01:19:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Jophiel is a long-standing member on these boards that I’ve interacted with before and would like to think know well enough to know that yes, they support trans rights. That correct. But I wouldn’t expect anyone to consider me an “ally”. For one thing, I don’t know any trans people in my flesh & blood life and even the ones I know online are, at best, casual acquaintances. I wouldn’t consider anyone I didn’t actually know in depth to be my ally by the definitions we’re using here. I support trans rights, I’d like to think I’d speak up if it came up that someone around me was shit-talking trans people (but I also keep company where it hasn’t come up), I try to remember and respect pronouns when referring to someone, etc but all of that at best qualifies me as “decent person”. I have no issue with being out of the ally club because I shouldn’t have been in there in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/292 "2023-02-19T02:00:03Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If I support trans causes and donate to trans support groups and lobby on behalf of trans people but I also bought and played Hogwarts Legacy am I not an ally who can be trusted or depended upon? […] > > How supportive does someone need to be to be considered an ally? How many mistakes can they make before they are deemed not an ally? […] > > I just think it is a stupid strategy to alienate people who may be on your side or, at least, sympathetic to your side unless they meet some really high standard […] > > I loved “James and the Giant Peach.” > > It was one of the books that made me love reading. > > Do I have to despise it now? […] > > So, in your view, Sterling is wrong in the video in the OP? If you like the Harry Potter universe then just play the new game if you want? No consideration for the morality of doing so? […] > > Per Sterling’s take, should you consider @Jophiel not an ally when it comes to trans issues? Ay, yi yi, yi yi. Whack-a-Mole, what you seem to be doing here is constantly begging/nagging trans people and trans allies, either on your own behalf or those of hypothetical others “sympathetic to their side”, for permission to consume art by openly transphobic artists without risking any negative consequences. You’re asking them to do the work of creating and applying a consistent system of rules that will specify a guaranteed bright line between Officially A Trusted Trans Ally and Officially Not A Trusted Trans Ally. That’s lazy and exploitative, and a classic instance of majority-group privilege mindset: “If I’m being asked to support oppressed minoritized groups on this issue that doesn’t affect me personally because of my privileged status, then somebody needs to give me a set of official universal rules to follow, requiring only minimal effort and superficial understanding. I shouldn’t be expected to have to work to develop understanding and empathy on my own, or risk any negative consequences because of different people having different standards for my allyship on this complex issue.” To recap: One particular trans person, namely Sterling in the video, has been clear and explicit about their reasons for not considering people who support this video game to be trusted allies on the issue of trans rights. Instead of just accepting that that’s how they feel about it, you have been repeatedly demanding that we either specify for you a clear, uniform and consistent set of rules for acceptable trans allyship, or else declare that Sterling is wrong about the position they’ve taken. That’s not a reasonable or fair expectation, and I think it’s long past time for you to stop whining about it. Consume whatever art you enjoy according to your own moral criteria, but don’t expect to be guaranteed exemption from disapproval on the part of anyone else whose moral criteria may be different from yours. And don’t expect other people to automatically condemn such disapproval because it doesn’t comply with your entitled demands for clear, consistent, universal standards of acceptable allyship. > [@Jophiel](#): > > I support trans rights, I’d like to think I’d speak up if it came up that someone around me was shit-talking trans people (but I also keep company where it hasn’t come up), I try to remember and respect pronouns when referring to someone, etc but all of that at best qualifies me as “decent person”. I have no issue with being out of the ally club because I shouldn’t have been in there in the first place. Thank you, that’s more like it, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/293 "2023-02-19T03:51:49Z")
You make the best posts. ---
**Author:** ![InternetLegend](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/internetlegend/32/13154_2.png) [@InternetLegend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InternetLegend)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2023, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/294 "2023-02-19T05:50:07Z")
If your “kink” includes unwilling participants, it stops being your own business and is nothing to make jokes about. Jerking off in front of women who haven’t consented is not the same thing as hiring a sex worker who has. He should try out his “ain’t I naughty” shtick on a therapist instead of an audience. Also, I don’t agree that this isn’t “injurious behavior.” I’ve been in the position of trying to get out of a room with a man who had more power than I did and who wanted to do something sexual. It’s certainly not rape; it’s not _quite_ sexual assault; but it is truly disturbing and frightening. ---
**Author:** ![El\_DeLuxo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_deluxo/32/9043_2.png) [@El\_DeLuxo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_DeLuxo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/295 "2023-02-22T00:03:49Z")
What the Hell is (supposedly) wrong with Fritz Leiber? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/296 "2023-02-22T00:06:00Z")
The last book I read by him turned out to be almost entirely a massively misogynistic torture fantasy. There are some bits and pieces of that in the earlier books, but I’d managed to ignore them until I ran into that one. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/297 "2023-02-22T00:16:48Z")
I recently saw the Night Gallery adaption of Lovecraft’s “Pickman’s Model” for the first time since its initial airing. At that time I was unaware of any facts about Lovecraft apart from his work. But watching it now, aware now of Lovecraft’s racist beliefs, it’s easy to see how the “monsters” in the story might be “stand-ins” for his perception of black people. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/298 "2023-02-22T01:53:19Z")
BTW is it me or did this thread turn into really two braided threads, one on overall patronizing of “artists who you find reprehensible humans” and another one based on the Rowling example and exploring the specific issue of allyship? So on the one about allyship… > [@Jophiel](#): > > I wouldn’t expect anyone to consider me an “ally”. (…) I wouldn’t consider anyone I didn’t actually know in depth to be my ally by the definitions we’re using here. I support trans rights, I’d like to think I’d speak up if it came up that someone around me was shit-talking trans people (but I also keep company where it hasn’t come up), I try to remember and respect pronouns when referring to someone, etc but all of that at best qualifies me as “decent person”. I have no issue with being out of the ally club because I shouldn’t have been in there in the first place. Let me join in saying, well said. I mean… I am fallible. I am limited. Inevitably someone will NOT be fully satisfied with my words, deeds and efforts. Avoiding that would be folly. What I can do is try to meet a basic standard of decency but there will be things I may not immediately “get” (and will want to look into, rather than be demanded to just embrace it NQA, so yeah I don’t make it easy on myself either). But there will be people, and issues, where for the people in question, the issue is so _critically existential_ that they cannot wait for me to “get” it. **And I should not feel hurt by that, they are the ones under a threat.** ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/299 "2023-02-22T02:01:38Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > At that time I was unaware of any facts about Lovecraft apart from his work. But watching it now, aware now of Lovecraft’s racist beliefs, it’s easy to see how the “monsters” in the story might be “stand-ins” for his perception of black people This is an interesting one because with Lovecraft by now many of us have gone on to actually read it already approaching it from how it reflects his concerns with miscegenation, degeneracy, primeval races and just not understanding anything beyond his small little world, so the Really Big Picture must be incomprehensibly horrifying. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2023, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/300 "2023-02-22T05:37:58Z")
Lovecraft, in particular, had a trajectory of becoming less racist and prejudiced throughout his life. I think if he’d lived to the Civil Rights era, and through the horrors of the 40s, he’d have completely come around. Still doesn’t excuse the prejudices that’re there, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721.md?page=16)