# Should people avoid consuming art they enjoy from an artist who they dislike or disagree with on a personal level? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2023, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721 "2023-02-13T17:17:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/341 "2023-02-23T14:37:35Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And for most people that means that no, you _aren’t_ literally one word away from saying goodbye and never having to deal with you again. fwiw, my lived experience is that I’ve said lots of words I shouldn’t have said, and my trans friends continue to invite me over to watch TV with them, and to eat supper with them, and to generally hang out together. A quick apology and change of subject can do wonders. I know they consider me a friend. I don’t actually know whether they consider me an ally. That’s their call, and it doesn’t really matter. I do try to lobby for a more trans-friendly world, but it’s obviously less central to my life than to the lives of my trans friends. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/342 "2023-02-23T14:54:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > (As an aside, I was told in this thread that Sterling prefers “they” as a pronoun. Oh, and thanks. I haven’t read the whole thread. There were some moderation flags on the thread, and i see those even though i don’t moderate great debates, and it’s a topic I’m interested in. I did go back and read the op. But I’m not going to watch a half hour of unpleasant material i already know. I’ll watch a couple minutes, if your or someone else points me to the relevant part of the video. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/343 "2023-02-23T14:59:32Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What you quoted was specific to the post I was responding to, nothing more. Fair call, perhaps I found using that language too convenient overlooking your specific intent, as I may have mentioned it _is_ getting to be a bit of a task to find my way around this particular subplot that has grown to completely dominate the thread and separate the particular from the general cases. However, still trying to do so (perhaps in vain as I just admitted), for some people out there it **does** seem like that’s what they fear, when it comes to judgement for their choices, doesn’t it? As I said, there is a certain element of “fragility” out there, of people who feel a need to be safe in their self-perception that they’re “one of the good ones”. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/344 "2023-02-23T15:01:05Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I know they consider me a friend. I don’t actually know whether they consider me an ally. Really, there are different kinds of friends and different kinds of allies. There’s the friend who will show up at 7am to help you move from a horrible 4th floor walk-up on the lower east side to a different horrible 4th floor walk-up on the lower east side, work all day and ask for nothing but pizza and beer when the job is done. There’s also the friend who is “busy” that day but who WILL show up at poker night with a 12 pack of good beer, lend you his sawzall, and put $50 down to support your Walk For Something Important. They’re both friends, one is certainly more reliable than the other, but it isn’t necessarily wise to alienate the second friend because he didn’t support you in your time of need. That’s not his (my) call to make, though, since he wasn’t the person who was left high and dry. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/345 "2023-02-23T15:59:34Z")
If I gave up on all my friends who wouldn’t drop everything to help me, I wouldn’t have many friends. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/346 "2023-02-23T18:00:14Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Pretty much any parent or spouse can think of dozens of such situations across the lifespan of those relationships. Your relationship with people in a group you want to think of yourself as an ally to is most definitely not the relationship of a parent to a child. I would hope that your relation to your spouse isn’t the same as to a child, either. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Have you ever offered advice on the course of action that a family member or a close friend was about to take? > Was that advice simply an agreement with their course actions or an offer of alternatives? If they’re asking for advice, then I will give it. Whether they take it or not is up to them. If they’re not asking for advice, then I probably ought not to give it; if it’s something that I think they’re clearly unaware of that’s relevant, I may mention it once, but I’m not going to keep on about it. In the case of a person who’s a member of a threatened group that I’m not part of, I’m strongly inclined to think that they know more about the threats to and the issues within that group than I do, and that therefore my chances of being able to tell them something they actually don’t know about are pretty slim. (If I had had children, I expect I would have given them repeated advice that wasn’t wanted, while they were still young children. Adults should not be treated as if they were young children.) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/347 "2023-02-23T18:44:06Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Your relationship with people in a group you want to think of yourself as an ally to is most definitely not the relationship of a parent to a child. > > I would hope that your relation to your spouse isn’t the same as to a child, either. Yeah, that triple conflation really jumped out at me, too. I love my children, but I substitute my judgment for theirs all the time. If I treated them as equals, with full autonomy, it could prove deadly to them. Part of my job, as a good parent, is to guide them to have better judgment. I’m thoroughly paternalistic when it comes to my paternal role. If I treated a mentally competent adult that way, I would no way in hell be an ally. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/348 "2023-02-23T18:47:09Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > We are not talking about trusted dear friends here, _I’m_ talking about that, I use that very example to explain what see I as a meaningful use of the word “ally” to me. A use that is resistant to, and indeed reliant on, being the sort of person who doesn’t automatically agree. to repeat > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If anyone uses “ally” to mean any variation of “think what I think, like what I like, hate what I hate” then they are using that word to refer to a concept that I don’t recognise as healthy and as such being told I wasn’t that kind of an “ally” holds no great concerns for me. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/349 "2023-02-23T18:52:40Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Your relationship with people in a group you want to think of yourself as an ally to is most definitely not the relationship of a parent to a child. > > I would hope that your relation to your spouse isn’t the same as to a child, either. Of course the relationship is not the same, the way in which you interact, disagree, advise etc. is different in each relationship but the fact that you see it as your duty as an “ally” (as I see it) to not automatically agree with and encourage their beliefs of course of action comes from the same place of concern and love. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/350 "2023-02-23T18:58:12Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > What if your view of the situation is wrong? If you have flaws in your thinking? well…yes, of course. That’s the point. We _all_ have flaws in our thinking and we all take courses of action that we think are right and yet will ultimately harm us. This not a one-sided deal where any of us are fully in the right. We _all_ need people to tell us when we are wrong. The strength of an ally is that they will tell you that and set you straight. That applies every bit as much to me as to the others that I care about. Someone who will not try to do that for me is not an ally to me in a meaningful way. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/351 "2023-02-23T19:00:29Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Who said anything about automatically agreeing? so one can disagree with a person and still be an ally? then we agree. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/352 "2023-02-23T19:07:49Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Someone who will not try to do that for me is not an ally to me in a meaningful way. So, you consider the people in this thread to be your allies? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/353 "2023-02-23T19:16:14Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > We are not talking about trusted dear friends here, > > _I’m_ talking about that, I use that very example to explain what see I as a meaningful use of the word “ally” to me. A use that is resistant to, and indeed reliant on, being the sort of person who doesn’t automatically agree. If you want to use a totally different definition of the word “ally” than the definition being discussed in the thread, I don’t see how anything you say is interesting to this thread. Also, no one said anything about “automatically agreeing”. People reach a variety of opinions in a variety of ways, and whether it’s “automatic” or the result of careful considerations is completely irrelevant. Let’s be charitable, and assume that most people have put a little thought into their beliefs. But if you believe that it’s perfectly okay to refuse to sell birthday candles to Jews (to make up an example), then speaking as a Jew, I’m not going to consider you an ally, using the definition of “ally” that’s relevant to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/354 "2023-02-23T19:20:03Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > If you want to use a totally different definition of the word “ally” than the definition being discussed in the thread, I don’t see how anything you say is interesting to this thread. then don’t respond > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Also, no one said anything about “automatically agreeing” I did. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/355 "2023-02-23T19:21:32Z")
I’m suggesting that if you want to participate, you might, just possibly, consider using the same words to mean the same things as everyone else in the thread. And if you are the only person who mentioned “automatically agreeing”, you seem to be attacking a strawman. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/356 "2023-02-23T19:24:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, you consider the people in this thread to be your allies? I don’t know anyone in this thread well enough to make that assessment. I do know that failing to agree with all my beliefs and courses of action etc. does not _disqualify_ them from being allies (again, as I define it) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/357 "2023-02-23T19:26:59Z")
**Obviously** , there are disagreements and there are disagreements. I’m an atheist. A Christian who says, “You believe that coaches shouldn’t pray at public school football games, whereas I think that as long as the prayer is voluntary it should be allowed” can be my ally. A Christian who says, “You believe that atheists should be able to hold public office, whereas I think that atheists are morally unfit for office and should be banned” cannot be my ally. If the disagreement is over whether I should hold equal rights and autonomy, that’s disqualifying. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/358 "2023-02-23T19:28:58Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m suggesting that if you want to participate, you might, just possibly, consider using the same words to mean the same things as everyone else in the thread. What I initially said was in response to > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I think posters here are being weirdly restrictive of what “ally” can mean. A specific response to a specific poster on the differing usage of “ally”. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/359 "2023-02-23T19:35:35Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If anyone uses “ally” to mean any variation of “think what I think, like what I like, hate what I hate” then they are using that word to refer to a concept that I don’t recognise as healthy and as such being told I wasn’t that kind of an “ally” holds no great concerns for me. A good example of the complexity of “allyship” is the relationship between John Brown and Frederick Douglass. > **[Lessons on White Allyship from John Brown](https://medium.com/@enajlaura/lessons-on-white-allyship-from-john-brown-4a536f16d355)** > > What a white dude from the 1800s can teach us today ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/360 "2023-02-23T20:02:40Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > so one can disagree with a person and still be an ally? …its funny that out of everything I wrote, this question was the only thing you chose to respond to, and you didn’t even attempt to answer it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721.md?page=19)