# Should people avoid consuming art they enjoy from an artist who they dislike or disagree with on a personal level? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2023, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721 "2023-02-13T17:17:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/361 "2023-02-23T20:18:24Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > > > What if your view of the situation is wrong? If you have flaws in your thinking? > > well…yes, of course. That’s the point. We _all_ have flaws in our thinking and we all take courses of action that we think are right and yet will ultimately harm us. This not a one-sided deal where any of us are fully in the right. We _all_ need people to tell us when we are wrong. > > The strength of an ally is that they will tell you that and set you straight. That applies every bit as much to me as to the others that I care about. > > Someone who will not try to do that for me is not an ally to me in a meaningful way. So, here am I, and I think some others in this thread, trying to point out to you that we believe you’re wrong that your advice on how people in threatened groups that you’re not a member of should respond to such threats is likely to be useful to them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/362 "2023-02-23T20:28:11Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > A good example of the complexity of “allyship” is the relationship between John Brown and Frederick Douglass. > > [Lessons on White Allyship from John Brown | by Laura Muth | Medium](https://medium.com/@enajlaura/lessons-on-white-allyship-from-john-brown-4a536f16d355) That’s a great article and example. It’s worth considering John Brown, Frederick Douglass, and Harriet Tubman in that complex allyship example. Douglass opposed Brown’s tactics–but Tubman advised him and was able to use his Boston connections to fund her operations. Complex indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/363 "2023-02-23T20:29:14Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > So, here am I, and I think some others in this thread, trying to point out to you that we believe you’re wrong that your advice on how people in threatened groups that you’re not a member of should respond to such threats is likely to be useful to them. I’ve given no advice on the how people should respond to threats. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/364 "2023-02-23T20:42:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …its funny that out of everything I wrote, this question was the only thing you chose to respond to, and you didn’t even attempt to answer it. I did actually answer the very same question, very clearly, in my response to puzzlegal. So would you like to answer my question? Can you disagree with a person and still be an ally? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/365 "2023-02-23T20:47:25Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’ve given no advice on the how people should respond to threats. You appear to me to be saying that you either do or would intend to do so in the wording of yours I’m quoting below: > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If I think they are wrong about the end result they seek, the methods they use to get there or if they have flaws in their thinking or they behave badly or refuse to listen to others, I’ll say so. – note that in this thread we’re talking not only or primarily about direct personal threats, but about advocating for a generally threatening social environment. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/366 "2023-02-23T21:28:18Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I did actually answer the very same question, very clearly, in my response to puzzlegal. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Automatically agreeing with someone when you are certain that they are taking a harmful course of action is not a basis for maintaining trust in the long run. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Who said anything about automatically agreeing? > > And can you give us an example of what kind of harmful course of action you are talking about? …my question (and the question immediately below it) stand. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > So would you like to answer my question? > > Can you disagree with a person and still be an ally? Now hold on a minute. “Automatically agreeing” is part of the definition you seem to be using in this thread. It isn’t mine. The definition everyone else in this thread is using is: > [@Merriam-Webster](#): > > —often now used specifically of a person who is not a member of a marginalized or mistreated group but who expresses or gives support to that group You don’t get to invent a unique definition of allyship and then argue that I actually agree with you when it turns out that I don’t and have never agreed with your definition. Its up to each individual whether or not they consider you an ally. They may agree with you and think you aren’t an ally. You could disagree with them and they might still think you are an ally. So can you disagree with a person and still be an ally? It _depends_. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2023, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/367 "2023-02-23T21:41:09Z")
I’ve had half an eye on the Hogwarts United controversy, but I’m not sure about one thing: in general, what argument are the folks who consider themselves “allies” to trans folks and Jews who want to buy the game without judgment making? That Rowling is not transphobic and the game not anti-Semitic? Or that even if they were both, that has no relevance or reflection of their (the purchaser’s) political beliefs and the effort they put into said beliefs? Or something else? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/368 "2023-02-24T01:51:45Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > If you don’t have their back on the specific thing that makes them part of a marginalized group, you aren’t an ally, for the meaning of “ally” under discussion. That meaning is well known and well understood, and the fact that there are other meanings of the word “ally” is really irrelevant, and a distraction from the discussion. I wonder what Dr. Martin Luther King would say about that? We revere Dr. King and have a holiday for him and not for the likes of Malcolm X. Dr. King did not tell white people they were not allies because they read a book or watched a TV show or whatever. He understood that his fight was not going to be won by drawing lines of who was on his side. Dr. King DID, however, say it was fine to judge people based on the content of their character. We have a long thread here and, I think, most people have said consuming some particular art does not, in and of itself, define you. Consuming that art does not, by itself, say much, if anything, about whether you are supportive of a given side or viewpoint. In Sterling’s most recent video (or very recent) they say they have lost subscribers. Make of it what you will but it seems Sterling is moving into preaching to the choir because fewer people are listening to them. I am not sure that is helping Sterling’s message or cause. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/369 "2023-02-24T02:30:24Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In Sterling’s most recent video (or very recent) they say they have lost subscribers. Make of it what you will but it seems Sterling is moving into preaching to the choir because fewer people are listening to them. I am not sure that is helping Sterling’s message or cause. …Steph had been losing subscribers the moment they came out as trans. That was it. Subscribers were going up. Then the _moment_ that happened people started un-subscribing, and it has kept up that way at a remarkably consistent rate. Nothing else has changed. They are still producing the same content. Their political views haven’t changed. What do I make of it? There are a lot of transphobic bigots out there. And _every_ content creator “preaches to their choir.” That’s the entire point. They aren’t “moving into preaching to the choir.” That’s just what having a platform _is_. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/370 "2023-02-24T04:57:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What do I make of it? There are a lot of transphobic bigots out there. Undoubtedly those are some. I would also guess some are people who started on the channel as a video game review/comment channel and are now getting something else. And some just do not want to be told they are doing something wrong. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/371 "2023-02-24T05:26:02Z")
King excoriated people who claimed to be on his side who were complacent. > **[Quote of the Day: Martin Luther King, Jr.](http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/060.html)** > > Quote of the Day: Martin Luther King, > Jr. > I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action;” who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a “more convenient season.” > > Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection." He absolutely rejected the idea that you should delicately avoid alienating those who claim to support you by not challenging them. I suspect he’d be just fine with trans people urging trans allies to boycott a flagrant transphobe. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/372 "2023-02-24T05:30:53Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > King excoriated people who claimed to be on his side who were complacent. > > [Quote of the Day: Martin Luther King, Jr.](http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/060.html) That is just not the same thing at all. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/373 "2023-02-24T06:37:26Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So can you disagree with a person and still be an ally? It _depends_. So in other words, yes. Of course it depends. My intitial post on this particular subject was to say that a definition or usage of the word “ally” that doesn’t allow for that isn’t one that I think worth worrying about. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/374 "2023-02-24T07:42:30Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Undoubtedly those are some. …more than some. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I would also guess some are people who started on the channel as a video game review/comment channel and are now getting something else. Steph acknowledges in the video that some people may have just drifted away from the channel. But as I said in the previous post, the decline literally started the day they came out as trans. As in that very episode. Steph mentions the decline on Twitter that week. The channel went from going up to a very clearly defined decline from that very day. as in a regular thousands of subscribers every week. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > And some just do not want to be told they are doing something wrong. And again, as I’ve already pointed out, the content hasn’t changed. Steph has been clearly on the side of social justice since goobergate, which was 2014-2015. And any long-term fan of their content haven’t witnessed a material change in messaging or tone…except everything is slightly more _fabulous_ at the moment. Viewers were getting “told they are doing something wrong” the same way back in 2017 as they are today. Layoffs. Live services. Easy mode. Google Stadia. Gideon Pontes. Loot boxes. Game unionisation. Are those Jimquisitions from 2023, or from 2019 or from 2017? It could be from any of those times because Steph has been covering the same things then as well as now. The content hasn’t changed. Steph is still talking about the same stuff in the same way and they’ve only changed one thing. And if people stopped watching because of that one thing, it isn’t because they “do not want to be told they are doing something wrong” because Steph as always “told them they are doing something wrong” (if that’s the way you choose to characterize it) . ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/375 "2023-02-24T07:43:58Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > My intitial post on this particular subject was to say that a definition or usage of the word “ally” that doesn’t allow for that isn’t one that I think worth worrying about. …and my initial post to you made it quite clear that this was never a part of the definition in the first place. So it looks like you agree with me. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/376 "2023-02-24T07:53:23Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > You appear to me to be saying that you either do or would intend to do so in the wording of yours I’m quoting below: that is taken from my full initial post where I make it clear that I’m talking about my “ally” relationship with my family. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/377 "2023-02-24T07:58:12Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …and my initial post to you made it quite clear that this was never a part of the definition in the first place. And my first post on the subject was not in response to anything _you_ said or any claim _you_ made. All the info you needed to know about which potential usage I was referring to is in that first post. If you think it is irrelevant to you, or you agreed with it anyway then I’m not sure why you feel it necessary to extend the hijack. I’ll end it now though. I’ve nothing to add. (I had nothing to add after that first reply) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/378 "2023-02-24T12:58:31Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > King excoriated people who claimed to be on his side who were complacent. > > > > [Quote of the Day: Martin Luther King, Jr.](http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/060.html) > > That is just not the same thing at all. King absolutely told people who thought they were his allies that they were doing things wrong. I’m still curious what Steph said that you think we should listen to, to understand what bothers you, though. I really don’t want to watch half an hour of examples of how Rowling has been ardently transphobic. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/379 "2023-02-24T13:34:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I love my children, but I substitute my judgment for theirs all the time. If I treated them as equals, with full autonomy, it could prove deadly to them. I agree, It would be very dangerous to give children the autonomy needed to permanantly harm themselves. They are less able to understand where they are going wrong than adults are. We do indeed treat them differently to adults. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If I treated a mentally competent adult that way, I would no way in hell be an ally. I agree with that as well, but you can treat them differently, as a fully competent adult, disagree with them and advise them and still remain (what I consider to be) a true ally. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721/380 "2023-02-24T15:22:15Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > what argument are the folks who consider themselves “allies” to trans folks and Jews who want to buy the game without judgment making? That Rowling is not transphobic and the game not anti-Semitic? I won’t go to bat for Rowling but the game isn’t anti-Semitic. The goblins’ depiction in the game isn’t remotely based on harmful Jewish stereotypes and the ancillary “evidence” such as the horn that looks nothing like a shofar is very weak. Ironically, YOU can get a horn to hang on your wall that looks much more like a shofar but no one is saying the main character is the game is an anti-Semitic stereotype. That’s without touching nonsense like “They mention gorgonzola cheese which is an attack on Jewish people because it’s not kosher”. The whole “Anti-Semitic” thing seems to be a mixtures of previous goblin depictions in the films combined with a shotgun approach to trying to scare people off of the game in case the Rowling/TERF argument doesn’t work. Much like accusations that the game is about upholding slavery (it… uhhh… is not). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-avoid-consuming-art-they-enjoy-from-an-artist-who-they-dislike-or-disagree-with-on-a-personal-level/979721.md?page=20)