# Should people be forced to work by the government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2021, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325 "2021-12-19T21:03:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2021, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/142 "2021-12-22T21:54:31Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I’m saying my experience is biased by the fact that the kind of factories I worked in were very large, very professionally run. Think Proctor and Gamble, GE, Volkswagen, etc. There is certainly a GIGANTIC difference in culture as you move up the size and professionalism ladder, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2021, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/143 "2021-12-22T22:33:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > How do you know that these women were “happy” workers? Because A) I knew some of them, and B) my job as a usability expert was to figure out what people did in their jobs, what they did and didn’t like about them, what their goals were, etc. But yes, I can’t tell what deep feelings they have, just as I don’t know if they had happy home lives. But my interactions with them didn’t make me think they were any different than the men in terms of job satisfaction. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2021, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/144 "2021-12-22T22:38:39Z")
A personal anecdote that relies on us accepting your personal expertise in assessing happiness, which you claim to be an expert in… got it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2021, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/145 "2021-12-22T22:44:18Z")
I was very clear that it was an anecdote, I was also clear that I am biased in that I only worked in very large factories which are run very differently than small independent ones, I also said I had no problem believing that exploitation took place in some of them. Your role here appears to be little more than driveby sniping. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/146 "2021-12-23T01:26:08Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Where’s the line? Where should it be? the line would be the unemployment line. If you’re not willing to look for work then your business with the state has concluded. No coaching involved. Do what you want. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/147 "2021-12-23T13:41:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > This remains a major problem. I know places offering $25 an hour to start to high school graduates, but if it’s a factory job, no one shows up, or they quit after a day or two. > > Of course, the young folk who stick with these jobs can end up sleeping on piles of hundred dollars bills. I’d advise any high school grad right now to skip college. Become an electrician’s apprentice. In four years you’ll be making major bux with no student debt. But part of the problem is, despite people saying this, I still keep reading stories about people trying to do exactly this (go into trades and the like rather than the college path), and they’re still treated like crap. Things like “places offering $25 an hour to start” for “full time employment”, in their recruitment ads, but when you get the actual job offer, it turn out to be $18 an hour for part time hours, and maybe at some indeterminate point in the future, you might work your way up to $25 an hour. There seems to be a lot of this bait and switch in the market these days. Full benefits becomes partial benefits, or you only get benefits if you’re full time, and they refuse to schedule anyone full time hours. There’s huge disconnect in reality here for a lot of people. And that’s not the employees fault. When so many employers are just flat out lying, it’s no surprise so many new workers have decided “Fuck you, pay me” is their new motto. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/148 "2021-12-23T13:45:28Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s that for DECADES they have been taught that if you work with your hands as a career, you’re a loser. There’s classism at work. It wasn’t subtle, my parents were extremely denigrating towards anyone who worked with their hands. Before I had my falling out with them that meant that they weren’t going to help pay for college at all, there was a list of acceptable degrees to go for. When I expressed interest in going to culinary school, the “Work with your hands” phrase was spat as an insult. Even mechanical engineering was too close to something where one would have to get their hands dirty for their comfort. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/149 "2021-12-23T14:05:29Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Things like “places offering $25 an hour to start” for “full time employment”, in their recruitment ads, but when you get the actual job offer, it turn out to be $18 an hour for part time hours, and maybe at some indeterminate point in the future, you might work your way up to $25 an hour. > > There seems to be a lot of this bait and switch in the market these days. Full benefits becomes partial benefits, or you only get benefits if you’re full time, and they refuse to schedule anyone full time hours. I know that locally there was a big deal over plumbers needing to have an apprentice program in order to qualify for city contracts. I honestly don’t know how that ended up, I didn’t really follow it, but just heard about it from time to time on NPR while driving. But, I can certainly see a situation where a company hires a number of “apprentices” in order to qualify for the contracts, but doesn’t actually put any resources into training them. In my industry, people are often offered training as part of the advertised job posting, but unless they can make friends with a groomer, and come in on their day off to learn under them, sometimes even paying them, there is no training to be had. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/150 "2021-12-23T14:25:37Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I know that locally there was a big deal over plumbers needing to have an apprentice program in order to qualify for city contracts. I honestly don’t know how that ended up, I didn’t really follow it, but just heard about it from time to time on NPR while driving. > > But, I can certainly see a situation where a company hires a number of “apprentices” in order to qualify for the contracts, but doesn’t actually put any resources into training them. Yeah, I’ve stories where apprentice programs are a big problem. Either they don’t put any effort into actually training the people, or they exploit the hell out of the new guys - low wages, bad hours, risky work environments, and then never signing off on the promotion at what was supposed to be the end of the apprenticeship period. Basically use the new guys as cheap labor until they get burned out and quit. Part of the problem is, there doesn’t seem to be any middle ground these days. Decent wages for 40 hours a week that lets you pay your bills but still have time for a life. But in so may cases, it’s either, “Here’s a job that pays $8/hr, we’ll give you 20 hours a week, but your schedule changes every week, so there’s no way you can get a second job to make more money,” or, “Here’s a job but we’ll expect 80 hours a week, won’t pay overtime unless someone sues us for it, and don’t expect to ever actually get a day off, ever.” Take a look at [some of the complaints](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70tO0EGEeVs) from the Kellogg’s workers who were on strike. Back to back shifts with little warning, one guy worked 120 days in a row, just absolutely ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/151 "2021-12-23T14:34:51Z")
In my industry our starting wages are around $25/hr, and top out in the low $40 range. Physical work, often outside in all weather. The only thing that stops us from hiring new people is the Waterfront Commission. Why? Because our guys, the longshoremen, are protected by a strong union, they make real money, no bait and switch, no 29hr/wk no benefits nonsense. They get their 40 hours + plenty of overtime, good benefits, and management (me) don’t get to nickel and dime them to death. Our guys have shown up every day to work, every day of the pandemic. It’s not a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/152 "2021-12-23T15:15:02Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Things like “places offering $25 an hour to start” for “full time employment”, in their recruitment ads, but when you get the actual job offer, it turn out to be $18 an hour for part time hours, and maybe at some indeterminate point in the future, you might work your way up to $25 an hour. I’ve no doubt some places pull bait and switch techniques. But I can tell you firsthand that many will happily pay exactly what’s promised, and that it’s a ticket to solid employment for decades. Shit, what’s wrong with $18 an hour to start, anyway? (Well, it’s bullshit for someone to lie, but if they did offer $18, that’s not shabby for a kid starting out.) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/153 "2021-12-23T15:19:40Z")
It is shabby for a single parent, tho. Or a 40 year old with a mortgage who is trying to find a new job after being laid off. Or lots of other people. “Not shabby for a kid” is a phrase that I would call exploitative. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/154 "2021-12-23T15:26:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Shit, what’s wrong with $18 an hour to start, anyway? (Well, it’s bullshit for someone to lie, but if they did offer $18, that’s not shabby for a kid starting out.) - The fact the company lied about it says something about how the company is not trustworthy in other matters. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/155 "2021-12-23T15:37:59Z")
Yes, I did say that. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/156 "2021-12-23T16:52:49Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve no doubt some places pull bait and switch techniques. But I can tell you firsthand that many will happily pay exactly what’s promised, and that it’s a ticket to solid employment for decades. And I’m telling you, it’s not just “some” places doing this. It’s all over the place. Take a look at some of the stories people are telling. The “Good wages at jobs for years” model of employment hasn’t been the _de facto_ standard for many years now. And it’s not just the minimum wage, “You’re just a kid” jobs that are pulling this crap. I have a friend who just became a licensed pharmacist, and yet, the promised promotion and pay raise at the job she’s been working have yet to appear. They’re treating her so poorly that she’s actively looking for a new job. And that’s someone with skills and knowledge you can’t just find in someone off the street. Replacing her won’t be easy, and yet, the company can’t get its act together enough to actually pay her what was promised. Employment culture in the US is just increasingly toxic, and the same is happening to a lesser extent in Canada. > [@](#): > > Shit, what’s wrong with $18 an hour to start, anyway? (Well, it’s bullshit for someone to lie, but if they did offer $18, that’s not shabby for a kid starting out.) It’s not just the pay, they also lie about everything else. Number of hours available, benefits, vacation plans. $18/hr might be okay full time, but if you only get part time hours, you’re not much better off than a full-time minimum wage earner. And this all speaks to the mindset of the employer. It’s the “You should be grateful to even have a job” mindset, where no matter how badly they treat you, you should just suck it up and smile. As if paying someone wages in exchange for work was an act of charity, and not an absolutely essential part of any sensible business plan. And it’s just getting worse very year. Stagnant wages for decades, while the workers watch the companies recording record profits, and then get told, “You should be grateful to even have a job”. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/157 "2021-12-23T17:38:30Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > $18/hr might be okay full time, but if you only get part time hours, you’re not much better off than a full-time minimum wage earner. It’s not bad for an entry level position with high school diploma requirements. It’s a bit on the lower end when they want a degree and experience. > [@Horatius](#): > > And this all speaks to the mindset of the employer. It’s the “You should be grateful to even have a job” mindset, where no matter how badly they treat you, you should just suck it up and smile. As if paying someone wages in exchange for work was an act of charity, and not an absolutely essential part of any sensible business plan. I quit a job in the middle of the last recession specifically for this. Any time I brought up any concerns, that was the response. Pretty good paying job too, but they treated us like shit because they _could_. > [@Horatius](#): > > And it’s just getting worse very year. Stagnant wages for decades, while the workers watch the companies recording record profits, and then get told, “You should be grateful to even have a job”. I mean, yes and no. Bad companies means fertile ground for new ones to spring up. Part of the reason for my success is that I am competing against an industry that typically treats its employees and clients like shit. I have better employees and better clients because I don’t. Given that, once I have taken over the dog grooming world, eventually I will retire or die, and those who inherit my company may well decide to start cashing in the equity that I have built, and it will become one of the poor employers offering mediocre quality like everyone else. The same with a number of industries. There used to be an O’Charley’s down the street, now that building is owned by a local restaurant. Same with the Frisch’s next door. They have economies of scale, but they also have legacy costs. Having been in pretty much every position between grunt and owner, I think that in most companies, quite a bit of the middle management’s job is to find ways of justifying their job. This isn’t _just_ deadweight, this is often directly detrimental, as they create problems so that they can then justify their existence by “fixing” them. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/158 "2021-12-23T17:46:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It’s not bad for an entry level position with high school diploma requirements. It’s a bit on the lower end when they want a degree and experience. But it’s not just happening with entry-level positions. It’s all of them, regardless of the requirements or qualifications. Even salaried positions get the bait and switch treatment. We’re coming out of almost two years of unprecedented job losses, we keep hearing about how employers can’t find workers, and yet, the people who lost jobs last year and are trying to get some of these new jobs are being met with this kind of bait and switch job offers. These aren’t entry-level kids fresh out of school, they’re experienced employees looking the re-enter the workforce after losing jobs through no fault of their own, and yet, this is how they get treated. Sure, maybe you as a boss are way better than that. Sure, you have no problem finding people because you actually pay them what they’re worth. So stop and think, why are _all the other bosses out_ there whining about how they “can’t find employees” and “no one wants to work anymore…” ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/159 "2021-12-23T18:08:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you’re not willing to look for work then your business with the state has concluded. If only the state employed and paid more than a single-digit percentage of the workforce, and actively prevented private employers from fucking anyone over, maybe people might care what the state thinks they should be doing, and American workers would not have been saying things like “Ask for work. If they do not give you work, ask for bread. If they do not give you work or bread, then take bread.” for the past 100 years. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/160 "2021-12-23T18:41:52Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I’m saying my experience is biased by the fact that the kind of factories I worked in were very large, very professionally run. Think Proctor and Gamble, GE, Volkswagen, etc. These have cultures little different than their head offices, and they come down hard on discrimination and sexism. Speaking of [Proctor and Gamble](https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/midwest/2018/02/09/480136.htm), by the way… > [@](#): > > An international staffing company violated federal law when it allowed a manager at a Kansas City, Kan., worksite to repeatedly sexually harass female workers on a manufacturing line, the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) has charged in a lawsuit filed in federal court. […] > > The harassment occurred at a Procter & Gamble manufacturing plant in Kansas City, Kan., where Staff Management | SMX hired and supervised employees who boxed soap for shipping, the EEOC said. […] > > One female employee, Jaurdai Walker, reported that the manager repeatedly called her “baby,” told her she was “sexy,” and asked her for oral sex in exchange for paid time off. She refused and reported the harassment to another supervisor, who told her she should “screw him” and take the extra pay, the lawsuit charges. […] > > The manager later threatened Walker and demanded to know why she reported his misconduct, the suit alleged. Other male employees also intimidated Walker because she reported the harassment. TBF, this is a suit against a staffing company that employed and supervised workers at a P&G plant, not against P&G itself. But it definitely contradicts Sam’s assertion that such things just aren’t tolerated in manufacturing plants run by large companies. Although, once again, I’m not saying that Sam’s anecdotes of his own personal experiences in such plants are in any way false, but I doubt he saw everything that went on in such plants, either. Oh, and speaking of [GE](https://dailygazette.com/2016/03/30/suit-against-ge-claims-sexual-harassment-gender-bi/)? > [@](#): > > Knapp contends she was the only woman assigned to the design and development shop and the only woman on the main floor other than a woman in a segregated area. > > She says in the suit that the sexual harassment began in July 2013 from a supervisor. She made formal complaints about “sexually charged comments and threats.” > > She also alleges that a co-worker told her that “‘we’ do not want women on ‘our’ floor,” according to the suit. She complained about that co-worker three times in 2013. An investigation took months to complete and resulted in no disciplinary action, the suit reads. > > Knapp also alerted security and human resources to “lewd photos of women” on machinery and to male employees viewing pornographic videos on their work computers. > > “The sexually inappropriate, hostile and intimidating atmosphere on the main floor was common knowledge throughout the facility,” the suit reads. “To [Knapp’s] knowledge, female researchers were afraid to come onto the floor because of the sexually charged and intimidating culture.” > > Knapp alleges she was passed over for promotions because of her gender and was finally transferred her out of her position to a segregated area with less responsibility, one week after being pushed to the floor. > > She alleges that GE made such moves of at least two other women who made complaints of sexual harassment, without disciplining or transferring the male perpetrators. Now certainly, not every accusation of workplace sexual harassment is true or credible, and I’m not jumping to the conclusion that everybody who sues a major manufacturer over sexual harassment is necessarily a reliable source. But I’m also not jumping to the conclusion that Sam’s credulity about the nonexistence of sexual harassment in such plants, just because the major multinationals running them have official policies against harassment, is necessarily justified. (Does [Tesla](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/11/19/tesla-sexual-harassment/) count as a “dirty little factory run by a small company”, I wonder?) > [@](#): > > Jessica Barraza […] on Thursday filed a rare lawsuit against the electric vehicle maker, alleging Tesla fostered a climate of sexual harassment at its Fremont, Calif., factory, where she says she was subjected to catcalling and aggressive physical touching. […] > > In the suit, she alleges a male co-worker picked her up by her waist, “pressing against her torso under her breasts” and placed her next to him. In a separate incident, the lawsuit alleges, a male co-worker stuck his leg between her thighs as she was clocking back in from lunch. […] > > In the suit, filed in California Superior Court in Alameda County, Barraza says she was subject to vulgar comments about her body, was propositioned by a supervisory lead over text message and was frequently touched inappropriately by co-workers, who she alleges brushed up against her backside multiple times a week. > > The lawsuit describes “rampant sexual harassment at Tesla,” alleging “nightmarish conditions” and a factory floor that “more resembles a crude, archaic construction site or frat house than a cutting-edge company in the heart of the progressive San Francisco Bay area.” Barraza filed complaints to Tesla HR in September and October detailing her experience in the factory; the complaints were viewed by The Post. She says the company did not address the harassment. Takeaway: Just because a middle-aged white-collar white guy working as a professional consultant in a large manufacturing plant doesn’t notice any sexual harassment doesn’t necessarily mean that none exists. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/161 "2021-12-23T19:00:30Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > But it’s not just happening with entry-level positions. It’s all of them, regardless of the requirements or qualifications. I may have phrased those two sentences oddly, looking for the compare/contrast rhetoric, but I am in full agreement. > [@Horatius](#): > > Even salaried positions get the bait and switch treatment. Salary is often more about the hours that you end up being expected to work than the pay. I had a decent paying salaried job with relatively good benefits. But, I was also in the store 90+ hours a week, and dealing with issues at home by phone or email for another 10+ hours. Not worth it. > [@Horatius](#): > > We’re coming out of almost two years of unprecedented job losses, we keep hearing about how employers can’t find workers, and yet, the people who lost jobs last year and are trying to get some of these new jobs are being met with this kind of bait and switch job offers. There’s a fair amount of inertia. There is also the fact that many employers are expecting the labor market to tighten up at some point, making jobs more scarce. I know a few restaurant owners and managers, some of them are willing to pay anything to get employees, and some either are not, or are constrained by their higher-ups. It also depends on how you define bait and switch. If you are hired at a certain pay for certain hours, and don’t get what you agreed on, that certainly qualifies, and is often illegal as well. If someone advertises, “Pay up to $22 an hour”, then not being offered that isn’t really the same. Still a bit uncool, if no one is qualified enough to get their “up to” rate, but they can also honestly say that they _would_ pay that much if someone had qualifications that none of the candidates possesed. > [@Horatius](#): > > Sure, maybe you as a boss are way better than that. Sure, you have no problem finding people because you actually pay them what they’re worth. I try to be. I pay substantially better than industry average, things are much more stable here than anywhere else. But I still have trouble finding people. I’ll put out a couple ads on indeed and such, get a dozen or so applications. Out of that, there are only a handful of people that are qualified, and out of the people I contact, only a few get back to me to set up an interview. Half of those don’t show up for their interview, and of those that I hire, about half don’t show up for their first day. Once in the door, my retention is a bit better, but it’s still has difficulties sometimes. I had an employee approach me a couple months ago, saying that she was thinking about quitting because she didn’t make enough. I asked her if she knew how much she made, and she said that she didn’t. When I brought up her paystubs and showed her that she made nearly $35 an hour, that she had about a $70k a year job, she didn’t really know how to put that into context. 3 years ago she was making $8 an hour at Taco Bell. > [@Horatius](#): > > So stop and think, why are _all the other bosses out_ there whining about how they “can’t find employees” and “no one wants to work anymore…” Anyway, point is, it’s not just _all the other bosses_, it’s pretty much all employers, good and bad. Now, with any luck, the employees will find good employers, and bad employers won’t find employees, and the market will do it’s thing. Problem is, is that employees don’t know what are good employers, often even after they have been working there, and employers often don’t know what a good employee is. We really are in a cycle of retribution, where employers are punishing employees for things that past employees did, and employees are punishing employers for things that past employers did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325.md?page=9)