# Should people be forced to work by the government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2021, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325 "2021-12-19T21:03:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/162 "2021-12-23T19:02:17Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Takeaway: Just because a middle-aged white-collar white guy working as a professional consultant in a large manufacturing plant doesn’t notice any sexual harassment doesn’t necessarily mean that none exists. For lack of a like button, I will say, very well said and cited. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/163 "2021-12-23T19:20:26Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Takeaway: Just because a middle-aged white-collar white guy working as a professional consultant in a large manufacturing plant doesn’t notice any sexual harassment doesn’t necessarily mean that none exists. Ditto to the desire for a like button. I didn’t see any crap when I started working 40 years ago, but that was almost certainly because I’m a guy and I wasn’t sensitive to it, not that it wasn’t there. When I was a manager I corrected some sexist stuff when it was called to my attention - but I should have noticed it before that. The perps - who weren’t especially obnoxious, just normal for 1988, were made at me for making them fix it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/164 "2021-12-23T19:29:25Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > It’s not lack of training either. Plenty of companies are willing to train, and still can’t find employees. I’m sure that’s true in some instances, but I’ve seen the training departments of large companies shrink to practically nothing. When I started training was on your list of goals for the year and classes were well attended. (I took some and I taught some.) By the time I was about to retire, even taking a database class at Oracle would require me to register for a customer class which was seldom taught anywhere near headquarters. This is nothing new. A CIO 15 years ago ranted about how colleges were useless because they didn’t teach the packages he needed right then. The clear intention was to fire all these people and hire a new set when they adopted a new package. Yeah, they don’t want to train anyone who will leave and take their knowledge with them, but when you stress employment at will this destroys any loyalty, so now surprise that people leave soon. And the way salaries are done leaving after a few years is a good strategy. Another case where management has shot itself in the foot, and now complains that they are limping. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/165 "2021-12-23T20:14:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > We really are in a cycle of retribution, where employers are punishing employees for things that past employees did, and employees are punishing employers for things that past employers did. Employees aren’t punishing employers though. Employees are treating every potential (or current) employer with distrust which is very different. Sorry, but the near-ubiquitous dishonesty is hurting you. If your employee could actually make even a small amount more for the same work by leaving, she would be stupid to show any loyalty to you. No one has any reason to expect loyalty to be repaid. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/166 "2021-12-23T20:30:06Z")
Aye; I don’t see how near-powerless employees could possibly be punishing employers. People who refuse to be mistreated aren’t punishing anyone, unless you think some people have a right to mistreat others. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/167 "2021-12-23T20:47:22Z")
It’s not even refusing to be mistreated. It’s more like loyalty in exchange for a promise of good treatment just doesn’t make sense. It isn’t personal - it’s just that there’s no way to believe that by taking less to stay with a company when they need me will earn me anything in a different situation where the incentives would tell them to lay me off. It would be extremely difficult anyway to get to a place where it was rational for workers and bosses to trust each other, but the frequency with blatant dishonesty and mistreatment coupled with workers having enough leverage at the present moment mean that workers aren’t going to take the leap. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/168 "2021-12-23T20:50:56Z")
Yeah, but the general sense of distrust means that some employees end up “punishing” themselves. Like the example of k9bfriender’s employee whose vague feeling of being “underpaid” was tempting her to quit a job where she was actually making far more than she had previously. To be candid, and to pick up on Cheesesteak’s enlightening example, this all illustrates some of the reasons why the near-fatal attrition of labor unions in the US has been so bad for workers. Many more workers used to have the support of an organization whose business was to look after their interests, to understand and negotiate decent wages and working conditions, and to figure out the details of how raises, promotions, leave, etc. should be expected to work. Not every individual worker fully understands how to assess or bargain about these issues. I know that many labor unions in practice were very far from perfect, but the current system of expecting each worker to be their own unsupported labor advocate is way more imperfect (except of course for employers, most of the time). ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/169 "2021-12-23T21:00:41Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, but the general sense of distrust means that some employees end up “punishing” themselves. Like the example of k9bfriender’s employee whose vague feeling of being “underpaid” was tempting her to quit a job where she was actually making far more than she had previously. Or another example - my husband is a sales rep. He is paid a salary. He has been offered other jobs where he potentially could have earned more. Thing is, those companies all paid commission. So when COVID hit, my husband took a 20% pay cut for about 6 months. (which he eventually got back when business picked up). What happened to the commissioned reps at the other companies ? They not only didn’t earn any commissions because they weren’t making sales, the companies also stopped their draw, so they had no money coming in. Now, my husband of course did not have prior knowledge of COVID - but he did know how his company treated long-term employees, paying them for as long as a year when they had serious health problems preventing them from working and that was one reason he didn’t jump to another company when offered the chance. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/170 "2021-12-23T21:00:54Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And the way salaries are done leaving after a few years is a good strategy. Yeah, it’s kinda odd, and very counterproductive, that an employee can usually get more money if they go somewhere else. You won’t give me a raise, but you’ll hire in this other guy at more than I make. At the same time, I can go somewhere else, and make more there. Seems it would be simpler to just retain employees by paying them what they are worth. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/171 "2021-12-23T21:02:16Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I know that many labor unions in practice were very far from perfect, but the current system of expecting each worker to be their own unsupported labor advocate is way more imperfect (except of course for employers, most of the time). Oh yeah, this is something I thought about mentioning. Obviously employers would basically always prefer to deal with individuals than unions, there are actually some ways where it gets us out of the jam we currently have. Not only are individual workers atrocious at understanding their own value which is which can lead both to under or overbetting their hand (the latter being bad for both parties if the worker actually does something like quit due to a misunderstanding), but there actually isn’t a whole lot k9bfriender can actually do to convince a skeptical employee that he’s genuinely a good boss. The levers he has basically are the type of employment and the pay and benefits. A union would actually sign a contract with him where he could be both forced and able to commit to objective criteria for things like overtime, pay raises, firing people etc. I’m not a “unions solve everything” person or anything, but I think a lot of the predicament we’re in is that trust just breaks down if there are enough rational actors that are willing to breach trust and assume other parties will breach trust. Unions basically would at least make sense of a lot of career paths where a level of trust was assumed but an adversarial relationship where everything is negotiated would make more sense. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/172 "2021-12-23T21:05:38Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You won’t give me a raise, but you’ll hire in this other guy at more than I make. At the same time, I can go somewhere else, and make more there. And on the “even more lying” front, lots of people ask for raises only to be told there isn’t money in the budget for that. But as soon as they put in their notice that they’re leaving for a higher-paying job, suddenly there’s money to be found to offer them a raise to stay. It’s gotten to the point where the only thing a lot of people will believe when it’s coming from their employer is, “Here, have this bundle of cash”, while actually being handed a bundle of cash. Pretty much anything else is met with deserved skepticism. Far too often promises are just a tool to keep people working a little while longer. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/173 "2021-12-23T21:15:19Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > Employees aren’t punishing employers though. Employees are treating every potential (or current) employer with distrust which is very different. I’d say that’s a form of punishment. If I don’t trust people named John because someone named John treated me poorly, then I’m punishing people named John. There _are_ good employers out there. They _sometimes_ do well by treating their employees well. But often they end up getting burned badly enough to lose their businesses, or they become cynical and stop trusting employees. I know every time I get burned by an employee, it makes me a bit less trusting towards the next. I try to fight against that tendency, but it adds up after a while. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > If your employee could actually make even a small amount more for the same work by leaving, she would be stupid to show any loyalty to you. Depends on what you mean by “a small amount more” or “the same work”. If the amount is less than I am planning on giving on her next raise, then she just hurt herself. If she goes to work somewhere else, the work will be very different, and, based on what I’ve heard about other places in the industry, very much worse. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > No one has any reason to expect loyalty to be repaid. Yeah, that’s what I mean by punishing people who haven’t done anything wrong to you. It’s a cycle, one that I do believe ends with the fall of civilization if we don’t find a way to break out of it. If an employee has no reason to be loyal, then I have no reason to be loyal to them. Once again, this is one of the reasons that I advocate for a UBI. I may be one of the few employers who do. If I am not responsible for ensuring their survival, and instead, only responsible for giving them something that they like to do, and that pays them to have discretionary spending money, then the employer/employee relationship becomes significantly more honest. They are in a better position to ask for a fair trade on their labor, and I know that the people that I have working for me actually want to be there, and are not there just to avoid homelessness. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/174 "2021-12-23T21:19:29Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > And on the “even more lying” front, lots of people ask for raises only to be told there isn’t money in the budget for that. But as soon as they put in their notice that they’re leaving for a higher-paying job, suddenly there’s money to be found to offer them a raise to stay That’s not necessarily lying, though. There may not be enough money to give raises to everyone, or to everyone that asks for them. But there may be enough to give them to everyone that credibly threatens to quit. That last category is probably a small subset of the first and second. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/175 "2021-12-23T21:27:50Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Aye; I don’t see how near-powerless employees could possibly be punishing employers. To be fair, they don’t just punish employers. They often punish co-workers as well. If someone calls off because they just don’t feel like coming in, or they quit without notice, then it hurts the company, it hurts the customers, and it hurts other employees. Employees are _not_ powerless. If I didn’t have employees, I couldn’t run my business. I did that for the first few years, and it sucked. I put a whole lot of resources into training an employee who has absolutely no experience. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > People who refuse to be mistreated aren’t punishing anyone, unless you think some people have a right to mistreat others. Once again, you are framing all employer/employee relationships as mistreatment. If that is actually how you feel, then there really is no further to go in this conversation. Now, you _have_ made a valid point. Employers who mistreat their employees aren’t being punished when employees undermine them. However, employers who try to treat their employees fairly _are_. So, this attitude of screw the bosses pretty much only hurts the ones who are trying to be good employers. Maybe that’s why there are fewer and fewer good employers out there. As @DeadTreasSecretaries says, there’s no reason to expect loyalty to repaid, so if an employer can make even a small amount more by firing someone, they would be stupid to show them any loyalty. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/176 "2021-12-23T21:30:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I know that many labor unions in practice were very far from perfect, but the current system of expecting each worker to be their own unsupported labor advocate is way more imperfect (except of course for employers, most of the time). I hated working for unions, but I loved working in an industry dominated by unions. The employers wanted to make sure that employees had no reason to even think of unionizing, so generally gave better pay and benefits than the unions did. Not being in a union meant that I could get paid based on merit, and not just based on seniority. I remember I was working for UPS eons ago, and one of the stewards came over. They told me that I was moving 350 packages an hour, while the average worker only did 150. I thought that was awesome, and started to thank him for the compliment. He then told me that I needed to slow down, as I was taking work away from other union members. In a non-union shop, it’s possible that my hard work would have been recognized, and I would have gotten a raise. I’d rather be my own advocate, to be honest. The erosion of unions has not only affected those working for them, but the labor market overall. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2021, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/177 "2021-12-23T21:37:52Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’d say that’s a form of punishment. If I don’t trust people named John because someone named John treated me poorly, then I’m punishing people named John. > > There _are_ good employers out there. They _sometimes_ do well by treating their employees well. But often they end up getting burned badly enough to lose their businesses, or they become cynical and stop trusting employees. This might become a semantics argument, but I think if people have a rational justification for not trusting someone, it’s not punishment. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Depends on what you mean by “a small amount more” or “the same work”. If the amount is less than I am planning on giving on her next raise, then she just hurt herself. If she goes to work somewhere else, the work will be very different, and, based on what I’ve heard about other places in the industry, very much worse. Yes, it is a gray area and there is inherent risk to leaving that you do still need to factor in. The thing is though, a raise you’re planning on giving her isn’t something she can bank on. And existing good treatment isn’t a guarantee of future good treatment. Your situation might change and your business might be doing financially worse and/or have less need for workers. People don’t really find out if they can trust their employers until the employer is in a situation where they have more reason to take less care of their employees. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yeah, that’s what I mean by punishing people who haven’t done anything wrong to you. It’s a cycle, one that I do believe ends with the fall of civilization if we don’t find a way to break out of it. If an employee has no reason to be loyal, then I have no reason to be loyal to them. I think it is a cycle, but it’s a cycle of rational business transactions, or rather that the default is no trust, and there has been so much dishonesty from employers that it’s basically impossible to break out of the default state of distrust. Honesty it’s sort of a miracle that so many workers are still good soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2021, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/178 "2021-12-24T14:52:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > To be fair, they don’t just punish employers. They often punish co-workers as well. > > If someone calls off because they just don’t feel like coming in, or they quit without notice, then it hurts the company, it hurts the customers, and it hurts other employees. The employer who doesn’t have adequate plans for when workers cannot come in is hurting his employees. The employer whose bad policies caused the walkout is to blame, not the person calling out the mistreatment. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Employees are _not_ powerless. If I didn’t have employees, I couldn’t run my business. I did that for the first few years, and it sucked. I put a whole lot of resources into training an employee who has absolutely no experience. First, I didn’t say they were powerless; I said “nearly powerless”. I stand by that. Second, you use an anecdote where the employer gave some power to employees as illustrative of how employees are not nearly powerless; do you not see that? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Once again, you are framing all employer/employee relationships as mistreatment. If that is actually how you feel, then there really is no further to go in this conversation. No; that’s your strawman. I do think that nearly all employer/employee relationships in this country are a huge mis-match and that nearly all have a vast power imbalance, economically, culturally, politically, etc. that favors the employer over the employed. Mistreatment isn’t all the same, and obviously some employers treat their employees better than others. Very, very, _very_, very few treat them even close to as equitably as they could. I’ve listed one; how many companies are there in the United States? What’s that percentage? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Now, you _have_ made a valid point. Employers who mistreat their employees aren’t being punished when employees undermine them. However, employers who try to treat their employees fairly _are_. So, this attitude of screw the bosses pretty much only hurts the ones who are trying to be good employers. > > Maybe that’s why there are fewer and fewer good employers out there. As @DeadTreasSecretaries says, there’s no reason to expect loyalty to repaid, so if an employer can make even a small amount more by firing someone, they would be stupid to show them any loyalty. Well, some workers have been trying to change that situation for well over 100 years now. And a handful, maybe, of employers as well. But how many more employers, bolstered by their wealth and position, have been trying to keep it the same? And we know, by the results in front of us, that the employers have a lot more success at pushing their views and desires than the employees. ---
**Author:** ![damarp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/damarp/32/9770_2.png) [@damarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damarp)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2021, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/179 "2021-12-24T15:13:37Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > requiring people to confer with job coaches before seeking unemployment benefits. setting reasonable prerequisites for receiving unemployment benefits is hardly ‘forcing.’ ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2021, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/180 "2021-12-24T15:14:27Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You won’t give me a raise, but you’ll hire in this other guy at more than I make. At the same time, I can go somewhere else, and make more there. In normal times employees have a lot of inertia to stay in a job. Interviewees have none, so there is more of a market for new hires than current employees. When i did salary administration we tried to steer raise money from overpaid new people to underpaid veterans. Those laid off due to the pandemic don’t have that inertia, which is part of the reason for the churn… ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2021, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325/181 "2021-12-24T15:43:20Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The employer who doesn’t have adequate plans for when workers cannot come in is hurting his employees. The employer whose bad policies caused the walkout is to blame, not the person calling out the mistreatment. You assume a lot - the post you were replying to said > [@k9bfriender](#): > > If someone calls off because they just don’t feel like coming in, or they quit without notice, then it hurts the company, it hurts the customers, and it hurts other employees. It didn’t say “when people can’t come in”. If you always worked in places where people only call off the day of when they actually can’t come in and couldn’t have planned to take the day off in advance, you have been very fortunate. I have for the last 30 plus years worked in places that 1. provide a generous amount of time off ( like 15-25 days of personal/annual leave a year, 13 days a year of sick leave that accrue up to 200 days or more, and 12 paid holidays per year) 2. Only deny leave requests if too many people have already been approved for time off _or_ if you are behind on your work. I realize that not nearly all employers have these policies - but mine have. I also realize that part of the reason they have had these policies is that most of the employees are unionized. And for the last 30 plus years I have seen my co-workers call off the day of because : 1. They wanted to be off on some popular day but didn’t request it soon enough/didn’t have enough seniority to get it - so they call off and leave the rest of the skeleton staff short a person. Which has at times increased the minimum staff required for the next such day , resulting in fewer people being approved for the day off. 2)They couldn’t be bothered to plan ahead for the day off, so they call in the morning and say they need the day off for an appliance delivery, for their apartment to be painted, to take their mother out for her birthday , or for a parent-teacher conference. All things that they knew about before 8am the morning of. And when I say they don’t plan, I mean they don’t plan at all, not even to the extent of not scheduling appointments on the day they end up taking off. There is also a new thing in the past couple of years where people decide to retire ( which requires an application to the pension system _at least_ 15 days in advance) and don’t tell anyone they actually work with until a day or two before their last day at work. They might be trying to give a big “FU” to management - but in fact, the people who end up getting screwed are their co-workers because although the person is retiring either way, the lack of time to plan how to reassign their work invariably has a much more negative effect on the coworkers than it does on management. Those issues have nothing to do with the employer not having adequate plans nor do they have to do with mistreatment. I’m not sure exactly what causes them - but consideration for their co-workers certainly isn’t a factor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-be-forced-to-work-by-the-government/956325.md?page=10)