# Should People of Color trust the police? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2017, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433 "2017-05-12T06:41:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/41 "2017-05-12T18:25:22Z")
First of all, let’s tackle the question in the thread topic: Suppose that one answers “no” to the question. What does one propose should be done as a result? When I see a flashing blue/red light in my rear view mirror, I pull over as required by law. When I do so, I assume that I’m going to be treated relatively courteously, and professionally, by an officer who will comply with the requirements of the Constitution and the relevant state laws in interacting with me. I do this despite the fact that on more than one occasion, officers who have pulled me over didn’t do that (thank-you, Kansas). I do this because the alternative options aren’t very good. What should I do if I [ **don’t** trust that things will go well? Not pull over? Bad. Not interact with the officer? Bad. Get belligerent with the officer, and challenge what I think is wrong? Bad. People who are interacting with officers of the law in these situations are not at their best, obviously. It’s stressful. It’s also stressful for the officer. But you have two basic choices: comply with the officer’s requests or refuse to comply (maybe doing something else instead). If you comply, you might still have your rights abused; some officers do bad things. But if you don’t comply, you almost definitely will have something happen that you won’t like, because failing to comply is going to get a reaction from the officer in order to obtain compliance. So anyone who tells someone that they shouldn’t comply with the request of an officer (unless that request is clearly illegal) is not giving good advice. So what do we mean by “trust” the police? If by “trust the police” we mean believe that the police will do the right thing, then I think that’s going to be up to the person and their experience. But if by “trust the police” you mean “act in compliance of their requests when you interact with them”, I think the answer to that is, yes, you should “trust the police.” But the OP was really raising a different question. The OP is asking America as a whole when it intends to address these issues in a systemic way. Because, the OP says, to fail to do so will result in a large segment of our society refusing to treat officers of the law with the necessary respect for an orderly society. As to that, I can only say that, so long as we maintain an “us against them” mentality about things, it’s not going to happen. Complaining about what some officers do is not an attack on all police, any more than the fact that some officers do bad things is an indication all police are bad. I’ve never understood why it is that people who want to defend police cannot accept that police organizations might need to re-think how they handle their interactions with minorities in this country. It’s not going to make things worse for the police who do things the right way, after all. And those officers might end up having a much more enjoyable job once they get to interact with a community that trusts and supports them as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/42 "2017-05-12T18:25:39Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If a woman gets the upper hand and kills her criminal rapist, she will not be looking at the death penalty. While I’ve got plenty of concerns with our criminal justice system in general, and police actions in particular, I don’t think this is a remotely realistic concern, and I don’t think you do our side any favors by presenting it as such. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/43 "2017-05-12T18:46:36Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > First of all, let’s tackle the question in the thread topic: > > Suppose that one answers “no” to the question. What does one propose should be done as a result? > > When I see a flashing blue/red light in my rear view mirror, I pull over as required by law. When I do so, I assume that I’m going to be treated relatively courteously, and professionally, by an officer who will comply with the requirements of the Constitution and the relevant state laws in interacting with me. I do this despite the fact that on more than one occasion, officers who have pulled me over didn’t do that (thank-you, Kansas). I do this because the alternative options aren’t very good. What should I do if I [ **don’t** trust that things will go well? Not pull over? Bad. Not interact with the officer? Bad. Get belligerent with the officer, and challenge what I think is wrong? Bad. > … I don’t disagree, and I have had a few encounters with the police, most were fairly cordial, as I can present a very charismatic face, and I am good at deescalating situations. I have delth with a couple of real ashole cops, but it may have been that they mistakenly thought I had committed a crime. So, yeah, in a police encounter, it is best to be polite and cordial, if you are white, it means you get off with a warning, if you are a minority, it means you get to live. However, this is when cops are initiating the encounter, and you have no choice but to go along with it. The problem is that people do not seek out police, if they have reason to believe that they will be abused or raped because they made the mistake of calling the police. They don’t want to see their friends or family arrested or shot because the cop is having a bad day. So, you have a situation where people are not reporting crimes, they are not turning to the justice system to resolve their grievances, as the justice system has shown to them that it does not care. As a white guy in a relatively nice area, I consider calling the police to improve a situation that is not within my control. If I were a minority in these areas, I would see involving the police as just making the situation worse. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > While I’ve got plenty of concerns with our criminal justice system in general, and police actions in particular, I don’t think this is a remotely realistic concern, and I don’t think you do our side any favors by presenting it as such. And if any of [this guy’s](http://www.theroot.com/convicted-rapist-daniel-hotlzclaw-speaks-and-we-wish-h-1790855392) victims had gotten ahold of his gun and shot him in the head, do you really think anyone would have believed their side of the story? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/44 "2017-05-12T18:46:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > While Michael Slager behaved atrociously and I’m delighted that he’s now a convicted felon, Walter Scott’s death probably would have been averted if he had simply stayed in the vehicle rather than running. Or, alternatively, and hear me out here, because this is a radical idea, the police officer could have _not_ shot the fleeing _innocent man_ in the back 8 times. Dude, what even is the _point_ of this statement? No, really, what the _fuck_ is the point here? Yeah, if he had just stayed in the car, he might not have been _murdered_. Just… No. You’re technically right. You’re also being a murder apologist. Stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/45 "2017-05-12T18:47:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m Hispanic, and I do. > > Generally. > > That is: I don’t trust all officers, because I have seen plenty of officers willing to lie. . . but overall, their numbers are small as a percentage. If you obey what the police said and don’t fight back or run, 99.999% of the time you’ll be fine. Let the legal process take care of the rest. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/46 "2017-05-12T18:47:28Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Reported. Sure. But have actually been abused and mistreated by the cops? :dubious: If we were in an earlier time I would totally buy that. But I think this boils down, mainly, to ‘my brother’s friend said this, and so did my mother’s cousin, plus I see it happening ever day on TV…it happens all the time!’. This isn’t to take away from the fact that Blacks (and Hispanics) aren’t, IMHO, targetted by the police for extra attention and also bigotted or racist handling (and automatic distrust), just that saying that 50% of a population of nearly 40 MILLION would mean that 20 million of them would be abused or mistreated by the police. That’s pretty extraordinary, especially considering the relatively small number of cases of abuse that come out each year. Sure, blue wall and all that…but we are talking several orders of magnitude difference between the two figures, and at a time when the media broadcasts every incident that comes to their attention. This could very easily include things like being stopped for DWB, baseless pat downs, kids told to move along while playing a game, etc – relatively minor sorts of mistreatment that result in damage to ego and dignity, but not to bodies, and would be unlikely to make the news except when it’s someone with a high profile. And various high profile black folks being stopped for DWB or similar sometimes do make the news. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/47 "2017-05-12T18:48:55Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > If you obey what the police said and don’t fight back or run, 99.999% of the time you’ll be fine. > > Let the legal process take care of the rest. Do you have a cite for this very specific number? And do you think this was always true in American history? If it wasn’t true at some point, when do you think it started to be true? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/48 "2017-05-12T19:10:41Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Reported. Sure. But have actually been abused and mistreated by the cops? :dubious: If we were in an earlier time I would totally buy that. But I think this boils down, mainly, to ‘my brother’s friend said this, and so did my mother’s cousin, plus I see it happening ever day on TV…it happens all the time!’. And before the DoJ reports on Ferguson, and Baltimore, and Chicago, I might take this seriously. After all, it’s just half of a marginalized population reporting mistreatment or abuse. > [@](#): > > This isn’t to take away from the fact that Blacks (and Hispanics) aren’t, IMHO, targetted by the police for extra attention and also bigotted or racist handling (and automatic distrust), just that saying that 50% of a population of nearly 40 MILLION would mean that 20 million of them would be abused or mistreated by the police. That’s pretty extraordinary, especially considering the relatively small number of cases of abuse that come out each year. This is a bit like the difference between the number of people who claim to be raped and the number of rape convictions, and I think a lot of it comes down to the same thing. Let me ask you this. How many of the major #BLM cases led to any kind of criminal prosecution? By my count… One. And not because a jury convicted the guy (in fact, a jury _didn’t_, despite _literally having the murder on tape_), but because he accepted a plea deal - presumably not trusting his luck again, despite the willingness of the defense to strike as many African-American jurors as possible. Consider also [the case of Michael Bongiovanni](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/04/14/the_michael_bongiovanni_case_shows_how_bad_cops_cover_for_each_other.html), who has had something like 20 disciplinary complaints but had them all dismissed… right up until someone caught one on tape. You can file complaints all you want. You can claim the cops mistreated you. But in most cases, it’s your word against the officer’s, and the court system will always always _always_ favor the officer’s testimony. So why bother? Sure, you can prove you were tased, but if you complain, chances are good it ends not with the officer losing their jobs, but trumped-up criminal charges against you - after all, if you were tased, there was probably _some_ reason. Seriously, take a step back and wrap your mind around the _absurdity_ of the Walter Scott murder case. That should be a five minute case. Play the video, jury deliberates, comes back 30 seconds later. And yet, instead, we end up with a mistrial and a hung jury. That’s _insane_. Maybe the abuse is overreported in this survey. But I think the futility or outright _danger_ of reporting is a far more substantial issue. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/49 "2017-05-12T19:12:51Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > If you obey what the police said and don’t fight back or run, 99.999% of the time you’ll be fine. This is hopelessly naive, and ignores everything we’ve learned from Ferguson, from Baltimore, from Chicaco, from New York, and from countless other cases around the country. Or maybe you forgot: “if you’re white”. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/50 "2017-05-12T19:20:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > On a related note, according to the FBI- > [Cite](http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/fbi-black-lives-matter-inspired-cop-killings-the-new-norm/article/2621971). > > Regards, > Shodan So the FBI interviewed a bunch of cops about what they thought and then published a report listing those opinions, and you want us to consider it… what? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/51 "2017-05-12T19:23:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And if any of [this guy’s](http://www.theroot.com/convicted-rapist-daniel-hotlzclaw-speaks-and-we-wish-h-1790855392) victims had gotten ahold of his gun and shot him in the head, do you really think anyone would have believed their side of the story? Yes, I do. There was plenty of evidence corroborating their stories, that would have come out during the homicide investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/52 "2017-05-12T19:23:57Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > This is hopelessly naive, and ignores everything we’ve learned from Ferguson, from Baltimore, from Chicaco, from New York, and from countless other cases around the country. Or maybe you forgot: “if you’re white”. So you’ve learned from Ferguson and Baltimore that you should not do what the police say, and you should fight back or run, if you’re black. Thanks for doing your bit to make us all safer. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/53 "2017-05-12T19:25:23Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > This is hopelessly naive, and ignores everything we’ve learned from Ferguson, from Baltimore, from Chicaco, from New York, and from countless other cases around the country. Or maybe you forgot: “if you’re white”. “don’t fight back or run” wouldn’t appear to be an accurate description of the incidents in Ferguson, Baltimore, Chicago, or New York. ETA: I don’t know what it is, but BLM and their supporters seem to pick the absolutely-shittiest causes celebre. There are some really sympathetic black victims of police violence out there, but Michael Brown isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/54 "2017-05-12T19:57:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, I do. There was plenty of evidence corroborating their stories, that would have come out during the homicide investigation. YMMV, but I disagree. Considering he was up to this for years, before he finally ran into a victim that was believable enough, and without a criminal history that someone took notice, I don’t think that his victims would have been believed had they come forward, and I’m having trouble tracking down the cite, but I thought I remembered during his trial that one of his victims did come forward, but was not believed at the time. In any case, you are really telling me that you think that, had his first victim managed to get ahold of his gun and kill him, that her story would have been believed at all? Maybe the second victim, you say, as there would be a second witness to his activities? How many victims did he have to rape before he would have created a pattern enough to make his victims believable? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/55 "2017-05-12T19:59:51Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This makes as much sense as claiming global warming is a myth because the weather today is cold. > There are 43 million black people in America, the fact that 10 black guys in Mississippi claim mistreatment tells you nothing about how black people are treating by cops. It is the chinese robber fallacy. > Crime victimization surveys show that the racial groups are arrested at the same rate as they offend. This shows that police are not targeting black people but they are targeting criminals. Furthermore, since quality policing can reduce crime and black people are more likely to be victims of crime, quality policing disproportionately benefits black people. Not sure what surveys are you using. > **[Hillary Clinton says blacks more likely to be arrested, get longer sentences](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/feb/26/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-blacks-more-likely-be-arreste/)** > > Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders have been trying to court black voters ahead of the South Carolina Democratic primary > [@](#): > > The campaign also had fresher data in mind, however, including a USA Today analysis of arrest rates around the country in the wake of the racial unrest in Ferguson, Mo. In at least 1,581 of 3,538 police departments, the paper found, blacks were even more likely to be arrested than in Ferguson. Only 173 departments “arrested black people at a rate equal to or lower than other racial groups,” the paper reported. > > The Bureau of Justice Statistics periodically surveys the public to study police-citizen interactions. Its most recent report in 2008 found that white, black and Hispanic drivers were stopped at similar rates by police. However, black drivers were about three times as likely as white drivers to be searched during a traffic stop. (When a search occurred, evidence was found in only 8.4 percent of the cases, but the report doesn’t break that down by race.) > > The Sentencing Project, an advocacy group, has looked at that breakdown using 2013 profiling data posted in 2014 by Missouri’s attorney general’s office. It found that when a white driver was stopped in Ferguson, there was a 7 percent chance the car would be searched and a 34 percent chance that something would be found. But when a black driver was stopped, the search rate was significantly higher — 12 percent — and the odds of actually finding contraband were significantly lower (22 percent). > > Not only that, blacks were twice as likely as whites to be arrested during a traffic stop. > [@](#): > > The research suggests that when you compare what happens to black and whites who are engaging in the same illegal activity and have the same criminal history, African Americans are more likely to be arrested, more likely to face tougher charges, and more likely to receive longer sentences than their caucasian counterparts. > > We rate the claim as True. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/56 "2017-05-12T20:09:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “don’t fight back or run” wouldn’t appear to be an accurate description of the incidents in Ferguson, Baltimore, Chicago, or New York. > > ETA: I don’t know what it is, but BLM and their supporters seem to pick the absolutely-shittiest causes celebre. There are some really sympathetic black victims of police violence out there, but Michael Brown isn’t one of them. Leave Brown aside and review the DOJ report - it shows appalling behaviour from civil servants. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/57 "2017-05-12T20:19:46Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Two things: > > (1) It actually _is_ unconstitutional to arrest people for failure to pay fines if they cannot pay them; That’s not quite what I said. It’s perfectly constitutional to arrest people pursuant to a valid bench warrant. Moreover, it’s perfectly constitutional to issue a bench warrant when a fine is unpaid and ignored. It’s true that _Bearden v. Georgia_ and its progeny don’t permit arrest or incarceration when the accused has made a good-faith effort to pay. But as a general rule, bench warrants won’t issue when the accused has made arrangements with the court to set up a payment plan or to show insolvency. It’s the people that simply ignore the fine that get arrested. And that process (so far as I am aware) is inoffensive to constitutional guarantees. I welcome correction on the point. > [@](#): > > (2) If it could be shown that towns with poor populations that are disproportionately black are more likely to crack down on poverty offenses and jack up fines and fees as compared to towns with larger poor white populations, would that convince you of the argument that this is racism? Maybe; the comparison would need to control for other factors like the general financial health of the town. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/58 "2017-05-12T20:28:58Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > First of all, let’s tackle the question in the thread topic: > > Suppose that one answers “no” to the question. What does one propose should be done as a result? > > When I see a flashing blue/red light in my rear view mirror, I pull over as required by law. When I do so, I assume that I’m going to be treated relatively courteously, and professionally, by an officer who will comply with the requirements of the Constitution and the relevant state laws in interacting with me. I do this despite the fact that on more than one occasion, officers who have pulled me over didn’t do that (thank-you, Kansas). I do this because the alternative options aren’t very good. What should I do if I [ **don’t** trust that things will go well? Not pull over? Bad. Not interact with the officer? Bad. Get belligerent with the officer, and challenge what I think is wrong? Bad. > > People who are interacting with officers of the law in these situations are not at their best, obviously. It’s stressful. It’s also stressful for the officer. But you have two basic choices: comply with the officer’s requests or refuse to comply (maybe doing something else instead). If you comply, you might still have your rights abused; some officers do bad things. But if you don’t comply, you almost definitely will have something happen that you won’t like, because failing to comply is going to get a reaction from the officer in order to obtain compliance. So anyone who tells someone that they shouldn’t comply with the request of an officer (unless that request is clearly illegal) is not giving good advice. > > So what do we mean by “trust” the police? If by “trust the police” we mean believe that the police will do the right thing, then I think that’s going to be up to the person and their experience. But if by “trust the police” you mean “act in compliance of their requests when you interact with them”, I think the answer to that is, yes, you should “trust the police.” > > But the OP was really raising a different question. The OP is asking America as a whole when it intends to address these issues in a systemic way. Because, the OP says, to fail to do so will result in a large segment of our society refusing to treat officers of the law with the necessary respect for an orderly society. > > As to that, I can only say that, so long as we maintain an “us against them” mentality about things, it’s not going to happen. Complaining about what some officers do is not an attack on all police, any more than the fact that some officers do bad things is an indication all police are bad. I’ve never understood why it is that people who want to defend police cannot accept that police organizations might need to re-think how they handle their interactions with minorities in this country. It’s not going to make things worse for the police who do things the right way, after all. And those officers might end up having a much more enjoyable job once they get to interact with a community that trusts and supports them as a whole. If I don’t trust the police, and my house is broken in to, am I going to call them? It’s all good and dandy to consider how to act when interaction is forced on you (getting pulled over, stop and frisk, etc). When it’s my choice? I might just call my cousin, a member of the local street gang, to help me out instead. Instead of a criminal being caught, now there’s more crime. Crime going up is bad. It’s the same issue that “sanctuary cities” are arguing. If people are afraid to call us when they are victims of a crime, because they are afraid of deportation, crime in the ciy is going to go up. Crime going up is bad, for everyone involved. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/59 "2017-05-12T20:37:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Not exactly - that’s 65% of black people who _claim_ they were mistreated. BLM claimed that Michael Brown was shot in the back, too, and that police shoot blacks more than whites, neither of which is true. ([Cite](http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf)for the shooting data - the falsity of the “hands up don’t shoot” lie has been established elsewhere). You are correct that the report indicates blacks are not shot by police more frequently than whites. You are not correct if you’re extrapolating from that that blacks aren’t more _mistreated_ by police than whites. > [@Study at Page 35](#): > > On non-lethal uses of force, there are racial differences – sometimes quite large – in police use of force, even after accounting for a large set of controls designed to account for important contextual and behavioral factors at the time of the police-civilian interaction. Interestingly, as use of force increases from putting hands on a civilian to striking them with a baton, the overall probability of such an incident occurring decreases dramatically but the racial difference remains roughly constant. **Even when officers report civilians have been compliant and no arrest was made, blacks are 21.3 (0.04) percent more likely to endure some form of force.** Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433/60 "2017-05-12T20:45:36Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > YMMV, but I disagree. > > Considering he was up to this for years, before he finally ran into a victim that was believable enough, and without a criminal history that someone took notice, I don’t think that his victims would have been believed had they come forward, and I’m having trouble tracking down the cite, but I thought I remembered during his trial that one of his victims did come forward, but was not believed at the time. > > In any case, you are really telling me that you think that, had his first victim managed to get ahold of his gun and kill him, that her story would have been believed at all? Maybe the second victim, you say, as there would be a second witness to his activities? > > How many victims did he have to rape before he would have created a pattern enough to make his victims believable? It’s going nothing really to do with the pattern. Homicides, especially dead cops, get investigated a whole lot more thoroughly than accusation of misconduct by skittish victims. I didn’t know anything about Daniel Holtzclaw before today, but just looking at [his Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Holtzclaw#Accusations_of_sexual_misconduct) show lots of circumstances that, if he were gunned down in the middle of them, would exonerate the victim It may not be true in _all_ cases (for example, the earliest victim might have some difficulty proving that she shot him for “forcing her to expose her breasts”, which I assume was verbal coercion), but at least a lot of them. Victim #2: “He drove her home and when they arrived he forced her to perform oral sex and then raped her.” If she grabs his gun and shoots him during the rape, the homicide detectives show up, he’s dead in the victim’s house, pants around his ankles, rape kit shows evidence of victim being raped, no legitimate reason for him to be in her house, etc. Probably an easy sell for the victim. Victim #3: He “pulled a woman over saying he was taking her to detox in jail; he instead drove her to a field and raped her”. If she shoots him in the middle of the rape, homicide detectives are called out to a field, Holtzclaw is lying there, face down, pants around his ankle, victim says he grabbed her and drove her out there, they can verify at least that her abandoned vehicle is where she said it was. There are going to be a lot of pointed questions about WTF he was doing in a field with a strange woman and how did his DNA get inside of her. Similar circumstances for the victims on May 7, May 21, June 17, and June 18. The basic question that’s going to be asked by homicide investigators is “WTF was he doing in this druggie’s home / field / behind an abandoned school / girl’s mom’s house / etc” and it’s going to look very favorably for the victim(s). To provide another example, Joe Gliniewicz managed to embezzle money and do all sorts of shady crap for years, but all of that came out in the course of investigation of his purported homicide. Police generally take homicide investigations with dead cops very seriously, and they are quite thorough. If it happened in the middle of a rape in some weird location, I don’t think the victim’s going to get charged. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-of-color-trust-the-police/786433.md?page=4)