I’m white, and I don’t trust the police, FWIW.
I’m Hispanic, and I do.
Generally.
That is: I don’t trust all officers, because I have seen plenty of officers willing to lie. . . but overall, their numbers are small as a percentage.
First you need to establish a pattern that is more than perception. And the plural of anecdote is not data.
May be - what’s your evidence? And the plural of anecdote is not data.
I have already provided a cite above that says
Regards,
Shodan
Same here…I’m Hispanic and I trust the police…by and large. Of course, I was taught (and I taught my kids) to always be respectful to officers and do what they say when they say it. I think that as a group (of millions) that, by and large police are trustworthy. Does that mean all? Hell no. But in a country of 300+ million with over a million active police officers dealing with literally millions of incidents a day we are talking about a relative handful that involve shooting…and the majority of that relative handful are completely justified.
As I’ve said in other threads with this theme, the best thing to do is just do what the police tell you to do, be non-confrontational, and if you have to fight, fight it out in the courts where you have the system and your lawyer to help you in the fight.
Two things:
(1) It actually is unconstitutional to arrest people for failure to pay fines if they cannot pay them;
(2) If it could be shown that towns with poor populations that are disproportionately black are more likely to crack down on poverty offenses and jack up fines and fees as compared to towns with larger poor white populations, would that convince you of the argument that this is racism?
It’s a mistake to think of “the police” as some kind of monolithic entity. It’s like asking whether people of color should trust “politicians.” The answer, of course, is it depends on who exactly you’re talking about and what you’re trusting them to do!
Some departments are deeply infected by racism and generally by untrustworthy officers and tactics. Some departments are run with high professionalism and integrity. Most fall somewhere in between. Generally speaking, I wouldn’t trust the police in Chicago, even as a crime victim. I would trust the police in Seattle. And I’d say basically the same thing to people of color.
Of course, there only have to be a small number of untrustworthy officers before the right way to behave is to trust no one.
Your own cite does say “On non-lethal uses of force, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force in interactions with police. Adding controls that account for important context and civilian behavior reduces, but cannot fully explain, these disparities.” and “Even when
officers report civilians have been compliant and no arrest was made, blacks are 21.3 (0.04) percent more likely to endure some form of force.” That’s data that suggests that black and Hispanic people could be mistreated more often than others by police.
Further, this link refers to a paper that does show a significant difference in shootings (21 times between young black men and young white men):
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/racial-disparity-police-shootings
So there is data that backs up the polling on police mistreatment.
That’s great advice, when it is just your civil rights being violated.
What do you suggest people do in these situations?
Is your advice for these peolple really that the best thing to do is just do what the police tell you to do, and be non-confrontational?
Yep. Who wants to “feel lucky” all the time.
And as you and I have noted previously, the big problem with dealing with this is that there are, literally, thousands of police departments that all act more or less autonomously. Don’t look to Washington DC to solve this-- they can’t. This has to be tackled at the state level, maybe, but more likely at every local level there is.
I think if you go into every situation with the assumption that the cop in question is going to rape, beat or shoot you then you will always have issues. And that you can what-if things to death for one-off situations such as those you linked too. Obviously, you have to engage your brain on these things too. I will say that, in terms of rape, that whether it’s a cop or just some thug with a gun, the best bet is to go along if you think there is a chance it’s getting raped verse getting killed. Of course, I’m a man so it’s easier for me to say that, so MMV…but I think saving ones life is more important than fighting off an attack unless one feels that the situation is life threatening. In which case you fight, whether it’s police or someone else.
As a general rule though, yes…my suggestion is to be non-confrontational to anyone who has a badge and a gun if at all possible. YMMV.
You joke, but there’s definitely a link between distrusting the police and violence. If you know you can’t go to the police, what do you do? You take justice into your own hands. It’s a problem, one that cannot be solved by simply saying, “Well, just trust these people!” As long as we have the kind of racial differences that lead to one set of parents saying, “Be extremely careful around the police, respectful even if they are evil or racist, because if you are not, they will kill you” and another set of parents saying, “If anything is wrong, don’t hesitate to call the cops”…
This makes as much sense as claiming global warming is a myth because the weather today is cold.
There are 43 million black people in America, the fact that 10 black guys in Mississippi claim mistreatment tells you nothing about how black people are treating by cops. It is the chinese robber fallacy.
Crime victimization surveys show that the racial groups are arrested at the same rate as they offend. This shows that police are not targeting black people but they are targeting criminals. Furthermore, since quality policing can reduce crime and black people are more likely to be victims of crime, quality policing disproportionately benefits black people.
Lay back and think of england, eh?
This thread is about trust, and why people do not trust police officers.
Do you think that any of these women will ever trust a cop again? Do you think that any of the friends or family of these women will ever trust a cop again?
Why is it that the lack of trust of police isn’t ever blamed on the actions of the police?
This does not come close to explaining why 50% of black people say they have been mistreated by police.
If you constantly had to go into situations with people where you know that:
A) They have all the power in the situation
B) They can literally shoot you in the back eight times while you run, try to frame you, and not be convicted by a jury despite clear video evidence of exactly that happening
C) About half the people in your life personally report having been abused or mistreated by those people due to their race
…Well, I honestly can’t see how you wouldn’t start approaching those situations fearing the worst. Again, this is the difference between white America and black America. White America teaches its children, “The police are your friends and guardians. If you’re in trouble, call them, they’ll help.” Black America teaches its children, “If you don’t handle this encounter perfectly, the police will ruin your lives if not straight-up murder you.” Because they have to. Because it’s true.
I’m not even gonna try to parse this. The problem with “I was raped by a cop” is that the person you report the crime to is either the person who raped you or someone who works with the person who raped you, and is a part of the so-called “blue wall of silence”, a fundamentally fucking rotten part of police culture that absolutely needs to die for any meaningful reform to matter.
[QUOTE=k9bfriender]
Lay back and think of england, eh?
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Deliberately trying to be obtuse and offensive, ehe? 
No…you lay back and think of England when you are a victorian prig who thinks sex with their spouse is just a duty. You go along with someone with a fucking gun is saying sex or your life. Doesn’t seem that difficult a choice, to me. Whether you agree or not, could you at least pretend you understand the point?
It is. And since there are, again, millions of active duty police officers and a relatively small number of bad ones, I think that trusting them is, by and large, the right thing to do. You could say that do you trust any random number of 2 million people in a country of 300 million and it would be the same answer…by and large the majority of those 2 million will be good people. Some relatively small number won’t. Should you not trust any of them because, say, 10,000 of the 2 million weren’t trustworthy? You could reasonably say no to that…as I said, YMMV. Me, I’d trust them until they prove they aren’t trustworthy and basically keep my eyes open.
Probably not. They would have a reason. The real question, however, is should the 10’s of millions of women who have interacted with the police in the last day and who weren’t raped ALSO not trust the police because a few raped some women? Should the 10’s of millions of blacks who haven’t been shot by the police live in fear and distrust of all police because of the few that have been shot? THAT seems to be the question we are debating.
It IS blamed on them…repeatedly. And it’s blamed for the entire group even though the number doing the stuff is relatively small. That’s human nature. But let’s not pretend that the lack of trust by the general population and by minorities specifically (here it’s all about Hispanics that don’t trust the police) isn’t because of the actions of a few.
While Michael Slager behaved atrociously and I’m delighted that he’s now a convicted felon, Walter Scott’s death probably would have been averted if he had simply stayed in the vehicle rather than running.
I agree.
[QUOTE=Budget Player Cadet]
…Well, I honestly can’t see how you wouldn’t start approaching those situations fearing the worst. Again, this is the difference between white America and black America. White America teaches its children, “The police are your friends and guardians. If you’re in trouble, call them, they’ll help.” Black America teaches its children, “If you don’t handle this encounter perfectly, the police will ruin your lives if not straight-up murder you.” Because they have to. Because it’s true.
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I’m not white, nor did I grow up in a white area. And I’ve see what you are talking about first hand. It’s ironic that you are trying to lecture me on this. And I still tell my kids to be non-confrontational if at all possible with the police. Know why? Can you take a wild guess?
Here, let me help:
and
While I doubt that today you could get away with this, in my day? Yeah, could happen. While I have repeatedly said MOST police can (probably) be trusted, not all…and there are definitely some that can’t and shouldn’t be. Your best bet when confronting an angry tiger is not to yell or bluster. You might still get eaten, but you might not too.
As to this:
Reported. Sure. But have actually been abused and mistreated by the cops? :dubious: If we were in an earlier time I would totally buy that. But I think this boils down, mainly, to ‘my brother’s friend said this, and so did my mother’s cousin, plus I see it happening ever day on TV…it happens all the time!’. This isn’t to take away from the fact that Blacks (and Hispanics) aren’t, IMHO, targetted by the police for extra attention and also bigotted or racist handling (and automatic distrust), just that saying that 50% of a population of nearly 40 MILLION would mean that 20 million of them would be abused or mistreated by the police. That’s pretty extraordinary, especially considering the relatively small number of cases of abuse that come out each year. Sure, blue wall and all that…but we are talking several orders of magnitude difference between the two figures, and at a time when the media broadcasts every incident that comes to their attention.
Sure, I agree, though in the examples linked to above not all the police got off scott free. And obviously, they WERE reported…it wasn’t just swept under the rug as it was in the past. But, sure…when police cover for other police on things like that it hurts the image of all police officers and it’s yet another factor in adding to the general public’s (and specific minorities) feelings of distrust to police in general.
You missed the part of the warning, “Even if you do handle the encounter perfectly, the police still may ruin your life, if not straight up murder you.”
Didn’t mean to be offensive, it was your comment that it was your duty to follow their instructions, and I have always thought of that phrase as indicating enduring an unpleasnat duty. If I am obtuse, it is not due to deliberation, but instead due to an utter disbelif that you do not see how a rapist cop is far more dangerous than a rapist criminal.
Keep in mind, that these were not cops who just grabbed them in a back alley, these are cops that ordered these women to get into the car with them, or otherwise used their authority to single out these women to where they could be victimized.
I absolutely understand that if someone has a gun to your head, then you do what they say on penalty of your life, but these cops abused their authority before they got to the point of force or physical threats.
These are the times when these women could have said “No, I will not get in the car with you”, or “no, my boyfriend will not leave the house while you are here”, and would have at that point been charged with refusing an officer’s orders. They use the fact that you cannot legally say no to them to their advantage.
If a woman gets away from a criminal rapist, he cannot charge her with resisting arrest.
If a woman gets the upper hand, and injures a criminal rapist, he cannot charge her with assaulting an officer.
If a woman gets the upper hand and kills her criminal rapist, she will not be looking at the death penalty.
When I see cops turning in other cops for such behaviors, then I will know that cops in general can be trusted. When cops lie to protect their brothers in blue, it makes all of them guilty.
Using your statistics, which seem very optimistic, you are saying that there is a .5% percent chance that the officer who is ordering you into his car is going to beat, rape or kill you for no reason.
You also assume that cops are selected at random. They are not, they are self selecting authoritarians. This is a different cohort than your average person, and IMHO, more likely to abuse power given to them, if they are not prevented from doing so.
Live in fear? No.
Be fearful during any encounter with a cop? Yes.
I am concerned about cops, and I’m a white guy with no criminal history whatsoever, I’m even aquantances with a couple of cops, but that does not mean that I will not be very apprehensive about any legal encounter I have with them.
It’s blamed on them, sure, but there are plenty of those, some in this very thread, more in the controversial encounters thread, who step up to defend them.
If police are not coming forward and ratting out their fellow officers for their behavior, then I do not consider them any more trustworthy, and while it may be true that it is only a small percent of cops that are abusing their power to rape or otherwise mistreat the people they are sworn to protect, every single cop that is aware of such abuse and does not turn them in are just as guilty, and that is a much much higher percentage.