# Should people only be allowed to purchase ingredients with food stamps? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 6, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410 "2010-08-06T16:08:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/361 "2010-08-13T20:29:24Z")
Given that I’m a federal employee I guess I better quickly send Magiver my credit card statement so he knows I’m not misusing his money. If the recipient spends all his food stamps on steak and lobster, than he’s going to be pretty hungry the next 3 weeks. That’s his problem, and if he has half a brain he won’t let it happen again. The only conclusion I can make is that Magiver feels that the poor are mentally incompetent and so therefor need the government to tell them what to do, hence a nanny state (which will incidentally the tax payer more given all of the headache of reinforcing rules.) The best way to proceed is education. The poor don’t actively want to be unhealthy just to stick it to the taxpayer. If healthy choices were available and they had the knowledge necessary to make them, I think that they as much as anyone else would. Given their addictive natures, I would retain the restrictions on alchohol and tobacco, since the addiction could lead one to spend money on these rather than food, even if they consciously know that it is a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/362 "2010-08-13T20:40:46Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > Go take a look at how much a generic brand of brown rice costs. Now go take a look at how much a generic bag of pinto or black beans costs. With those few dollars, you can eat for a month… Uh, a couple of dollars a month? No. Let’s say you have a 16oz bag of black beans. This is about 453 grams. 35 grams of dried black beans is [about a hundred calories](http://www.livestrong.com/thedailyplate/nutrition-calories/food/great-value/dried-black-beans/). This works out to about 1200 calories per bag - an adult male in a labor job would need 2 full bags for just one day. Dried beans are great and relatively inexpensive, but no, you cannot live for a month on pretty much anything for a ‘few dollars’. Around here, a bag of dried beans would be about $2. That’s about 600 calories per dollar. Ramen works out to 380 calories per pack. Ramen can be had for about 20 cents a pack (in certain varieties/quantities). That’s 1900 calories per dollar. That’s not even figuring the additional time and ingredients that you’ll need to make palatable beans, and the additional energy costs of longer cooking time. I’m not saying it’s impossible to eat healthy on a limited budget, but honestly, some of the critics seem to be out of touch with actual reality here. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/363 "2010-08-13T21:59:50Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > > [@starwarsfreek42](#): > > > > I have just returned from Wal-Mart, where I bought some pre-packaged guacamole. It cost $2. Avocados were 1 apiece, but I'd have needed 3 to make as much guacamole as is in this package. Yeah, that's anecdotal. Don't care. They also have .99 pizzas, ramen for $.14 per pack, and a variety of other cheap prepared foods. But a bag of frozen vegetables is $3 or $4. A bag of mixed fruit was $5.99. Sack of potatoes $4.98. Two boxes of frozen potatoes was $3.89. From where I stand, the math is pretty clear. > > You’re not doing it right. Simply buying ingredient type foods is not enough by itself. A lot of healthy ingredient type foods are fairly expensive. Of course you will spend a lot of money if you go around buying bags of mixed fruit. That would be idiotic. > > How long will your $.99 pizza last you? Will ramen by itself even keep you alive? Why the hell would you even want to be eating that stuff? > > Go take a look at how much a generic brand of brown rice costs. Now go take a look at how much a generic bag of pinto or black beans costs. With those few dollars, you can eat for a month, and I’m sure you will be feeling better than you will after consuming your 15th ramen in a row. Buy some eggs; they are pretty cheap. Fry them up and throw them in with the rice and beans. Yes, vegetables can unfortunately be expensive, so don’t go picking through the organic produce – go for a big bag of frozen peas or something and add that in here and there. > > Buying ingredient type food can be incredibly cheap if you are smart about it and very expensive if you are not. I do agree that buying healthy, inexpensive food can be done. There are some very cheap foods that are also very good for you, like you mentioned. Even fresh produce can be cheap. Apples are cheap (here anyway, but this is WA so we have apples everywhere) and a bag of baby carrots is sure cheap (I buy them [with food stamps, yes] for my guinea pig so often that the store sends me personalized coupons for a free bag of them on a regular basis, making them especially cheap!) There always seems to be some different fresh fruits and vegetables on sale for a much lower price than normal. So yeah, when people insist that buying healthy food is prohibitively expensive, I can’t agree. Also, when people say that many poor people don’t have access to well-stocked grocery stores, well, I’ve never had such an experience, and I’ve lived in my share of poor areas. The poorest neighborhoods around here all have nice grocery stores. But I understand that is not the case everywhere. And many people on food stamps (and NOT on food stamps) just don’t know how to buy healthy food on a budget. A lot of people don’t even know what IS healthy. It baffles me the things some people have told me they think are good for you, like drinks containing 2% fruit juice, Rice-A-Roni, mac n cheese, fish sticks, hot dogs, etc. I think nutrition education should be more of a priority. Rather than forcing a relatively small number of people to buy things on some arbitrary list, why not educate as many people as we can about these things? My daughter has had some nutrition education in school, and that’s great, but it could be expanded. And they never taught her about inexpensive nutritional products. Why not take kids on a field trip to the grocery store and show them how to select the right foods? If only poor people or food stamp recipients were obese, what a wonderful world it would be. The fact is that many, many others are obese also, and their lifestyle choices affect society too. So shouldn’t we make fundamental changes, instead of limited, arbitrary, bureaucratic ones? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/364 "2010-08-13T22:34:03Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > A lot of people don’t even know what IS healthy. It baffles me the things some people have told me they think are good for you, like drinks containing 2% fruit juice, Rice-A-Roni, mac n cheese, fish sticks, hot dogs, etc. And then there’s the stuff that is healthy in moderate quantities, but unhealthy in large quantities. Or that’s healthy prepared one way, but not so healthy prepared in another way. Eating a healthy diet isn’t just a matter of avoiding certain “bad” foods. If it were, I suspect we’d have a lot fewer overweight and obese people than we do. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/365 "2010-08-13T23:10:46Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#): > > … honestly, some of the critics seem to be out of touch with actual reality here. > [@Magiver](#): > > Snacks, $40 limit per month. Next. > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > … All you people taking about healthy food, find out the allowance for your state … Will the national averages do? ('Cause I really don’t feel like formatting the table. 😉 And really, as seen below, the allowance isn’t what the average person actually gets.) > [@](#): > > Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program: Average monthly benefit per person > (Data as of August 3, 2010) > > FY 2005 - 92.57 > FY 2006 - 94.32 > FY 2007 - 95.63 > FY 2008 - 101.52 > FY 2009 - 124.45 > > Annual averages are total benefits divided by total annual participation.[RIGHT][CITE](http://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/18SNAPavg$PP.htm)[/RIGHT] My state [PA](http://www.dpw.state.pa.us/ServicesPrograms/FoodStamps/). What are the minimum and maximum monthly benefit amounts? Family Size - 1 Maximum - $200. Minimum benefits for eligible households range from $2 to $16. [Pennsylvania FY 2009 average - 118.40](http://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/18SNAPavg$PP.htm). ~40% of your “food stamps” a month for snacks? Next indeed. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/366 "2010-08-14T01:02:56Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > > [@Blackberry](#): > > > > A lot of people don’t even know what IS healthy. It baffles me the things some people have told me they think are good for you, like drinks containing 2% fruit juice, Rice-A-Roni, mac n cheese, fish sticks, hot dogs, etc. > > And then there’s the stuff that is healthy in moderate quantities, but unhealthy in large quantities. Or that’s healthy prepared one way, but not so healthy prepared in another way. Eating a healthy diet isn’t just a matter of avoiding certain “bad” foods. If it were, I suspect we’d have a lot fewer overweight and obese people than we do. Oh gosh yes. I think that portion sizes are probably actually the biggest problem. I have heard repeatedly that in some places, like France, they routinely eat fatty, carb-heavy foods, but they’re still a lot skinnier than we are, because they don’t “super-size” it all. We could eat exactly what we’re eating now, but reduce portions by some non-extreme amount, like 25%, or even 10%, and obviously we’d all get skinnier. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/367 "2010-08-14T01:13:55Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Where are you people living that food stamps are still used? NJ people get a credit card with the balance put in every month. The only diffference between it and a credit/debit card is that users can’t get change EVERYONE has the EBT “debit card” system now - but they still call it “food stamps”. The only folks who still get actual paper anything anymore is WIC. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/368 "2010-08-14T01:44:20Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > How long will your $.99 pizza last you? Will ramen by itself even keep you alive? Why the hell would you even want to be eating that stuff? > > Go take a look at how much a generic brand of brown rice costs. Now go take a look at how much a generic bag of pinto or black beans costs. With those few dollars, you can eat for a month, and I’m sure you will be feeling better than you will after consuming your 15th ramen in a row. Buy some eggs; they are pretty cheap. Fry them up and throw them in with the rice and beans. Yes, vegetables can unfortunately be expensive, so don’t go picking through the organic produce – go for a big bag of frozen peas or something and add that in here and there. > > Buying ingredient type food can be incredibly cheap if you are smart about it and very expensive if you are not. The funny thing is - that diet you propose would make me seriously ill, potentially even kill me, as I am allergic to pintos and peas (and quite a few other legumes). Ironically even as bad as it is, ramen _really is_ healthier for me than peas because _ramen won’t put me in the hospital_. Which makes me doubly glad that I was allowed to make food choices while on food stamps and not other people, because if others had been making the choices _even more_ of your tax money would have been spent on emergency treatment for me. Gee, that would be cost effective Given that _millions_ of people are on food stamps right now, and I’m not the only one with food allergies or intolerances, or some other health problem. So multiply that out considerably. Will you then write food prescriptions after a doctor’s exam for people? Won’t that cost money? Hey, despite feeding me and mine a VERY good diet while on food stamps (brown rice, lean and inexpensive meats, lots and lots of vegetables from my garden, fresh fruit, whole grain breads, etc.) yeah, I bought some soda and some chips. So effing sue me. I got diet soda for my diabetic husband who even when NOT on food stamps largely can’t have all the sugared and sweet goodies he’d like. During those months diet soda was the ONLY luxury he got. I got some chips and pretzels for my lunches because, as I stated once before, I work on construction site that don’t have refrigerators. Hell, we often don’t even have _toilets_. When it’s 95+ degrees like it was today and lunch lives in a cooler for 4-5 hours WHAT should I bring that won’t go bad? Yeah, I bring fruit, but fruit alone isn’t a very satisfying lunch (and I’ve had fruit get nasty after baking in the heat for several hours, Not real common, but it does happen sometimes). Chips and pretzels won’t go bad in either heat or cold, and I have to pack my lunches with that in mind. Sealed beverages won’t get dirt and grit and paint and sawdust and what not into them before I’m ready to drink. Last December when, _in addition_ to working part time and spending another 20-30 hours a week looking for more work my husband spent time in the hospital having surgery - sue me if that particular week I lived on less than stellar food. I had a lot of crap on my mind and no time to cook. I consider myself fortunate I never had one of the nosy busy-bodies in this thread peering over my shoulder as I made my purchases. Because, frankly, I didn’t need any more stress in my life. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/369 "2010-08-14T01:52:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t see how fried snacks figure into a food budget. The question is how do people live on the allowance while buying high priced nutritionally vacant snacks? They don’t. If you’re on food stamps your allotment is based _on your income_. Meaning not everyone gets the maximum amount. There are people only getting $50 or $20 dollars a month. Given that they have other income there’s not a goddamned thing you can do to stop them from buying cheese doodles. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/370 "2010-08-14T04:34:58Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > > [@starwarsfreek42](#): > > > > I have just returned from Wal-Mart…Avocados were $1 apiece…But a bag of frozen vegetables is $3 or $4. A bag of mixed fruit was $5.99. Sack of potatoes $4.98… > > …Go take a look at how much a generic brand of brown rice costs. Now go take a look at how much a generic bag of pinto or black beans costs…Buying ingredient type food can be incredibly cheap if you are smart about it and very expensive if you are not. The seemingly contradictory realities result from the larger food production and marketing systems in the U.S. Wal-Mart sells a 10-pound bag of potatoes for 6 bucks in order to keep fresh potatoes in stock on the shelf no matter how the market fluctuates, no matter where they come from. Potato chips, on the other-hand, are a dependable constant–and with them, they’re not selling the potatoes so much as the fat, the salt, the “natural” flavoring, the packaging, the marketing, and the product image. If there’s a fluctuation in the volume of potato crops–even a large one–do you think that has even the slightest effect on the price of potato chips? No way. (It’s not much different if we’re talking about instant hash browns, etc., either.) So for the Walmart production system, why not just sell that product as cheaply as possible, so people buy more. Sell them twice as much Coke, because then they’ll then just drink twice as much, and the cost of the actual ingredients is nothing. Who needs water? To repeat, this isn’t Africa. The amount of healthy food which is theoretically available at a cheap cost to anyone who needs it is not the issue. It’s not a shortage that makes the price higher. The problem with the EBT system is that it’s half social program and half free-market. The government scrimps on EBT, but then turns around and for political reasons throws huge subsidies at corn farmers, whose product ends up as…cheap high fructose corn syrup–the most prominent ingredient in soda and other empty calorie foods. WalMart might sell you a bag of potatoes for $5.99, but the 99 Cents store across the street will sell it to you for, well, 99 cents. They’re both doing quite well, though. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/371 "2010-08-14T05:07:38Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Since, as noted SNAP is a Federal program, it does not affect your state’s coffers – And what well does the federal money come from? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/372 "2010-08-14T05:09:12Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > I don’t see how fried snacks figure into a food budget. The question is how do people live on the allowance while buying high priced nutritionally vacant snacks? > > They don’t. > > If you’re on food stamps your allotment is based _on your income_. Meaning not everyone gets the maximum amount. There are people only getting $50 or $20 dollars a month. Given that they have other income there’s not a goddamned thing you can do to stop them from buying cheese doodles. Really? How does it work with the WIC program? ---
**Author:** ![starwarsfreek42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@starwarsfreek42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/starwarsfreek42)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/373 "2010-08-14T06:10:14Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > > [@starwarsfreek42](#): > > > > I have just returned from Wal-Mart, where I bought some pre-packaged guacamole. It cost $2. Avocados were 1 apiece, but I'd have needed 3 to make as much guacamole as is in this package. Yeah, that's anecdotal. Don't care. They also have .99 pizzas, ramen for $.14 per pack, and a variety of other cheap prepared foods. But a bag of frozen vegetables is $3 or $4. A bag of mixed fruit was $5.99. Sack of potatoes $4.98. Two boxes of frozen potatoes was $3.89. From where I stand, the math is pretty clear. > > You’re not doing it right. Simply buying ingredient type foods is not enough by itself. A lot of healthy ingredient type foods are fairly expensive. Of course you will spend a lot of money if you go around buying bags of mixed fruit. That would be idiotic. > > How long will your $.99 pizza last you? Will ramen by itself even keep you alive? Why the hell would you even want to be eating that stuff? > > Go take a look at how much a generic brand of brown rice costs. Now go take a look at how much a generic bag of pinto or black beans costs. **With those few dollars, you can eat for a month,** and I’m sure you will be feeling better than you will after consuming your 15th ramen in a row. Buy some eggs; they are pretty cheap. Fry them up and throw them in with the rice and beans. Yes, vegetables can unfortunately be expensive, so don’t go picking through the organic produce – go for a big bag of frozen peas or something and add that in here and there. > > Buying ingredient type food can be incredibly cheap if you are smart about it and very expensive if you are not. Bolding mine. You are so, so wrong. Let’s assume for a moment that I live in Section 8 housing with 4 kids and have no electricity, like the people who live across the street from me. How do I cook those beans? How do I heat those frozen peas and fry those eggs? Furthermore, how do I convince my children that they want to eat a big nasty bowl of beans, eggs, and peas? Tell me please, because obviously you know more about this than an idiot like me. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/374 "2010-08-14T06:50:25Z")
> [@starwarsfreek42](#): > > Let’s assume for a moment that I live in Section 8 housing with 4 kids and have no electricity, like the people who live across the street from me. How do I cook those beans? How do I heat those frozen peas and fry those eggs? Furthermore, how do I convince my children that they want to eat a big nasty bowl of beans, eggs, and peas? Tell me please, because obviously you know more about this than an idiot like me. You pick up the phone and call Children’s Services who in turn places the children in a safe environment. ---
**Author:** ![starwarsfreek42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@starwarsfreek42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/starwarsfreek42)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/375 "2010-08-14T07:05:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You pick up the phone and call Children’s Services who in turn places the children in a safe environment. What? People have lived without electricity for thousands and thousands of years. I’d argue that a house with no electricity is \*much \*safer than one with it. They have running water. They can afford food, or lights. Which would you choose? Back to the point. These people do not have a working stove or hot water. How do they cook beans, eggs, or frozen peas? I’m waiting. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/376 "2010-08-14T07:21:08Z")
> [@starwarsfreek42](#): > > Let’s assume for a moment that I live in Section 8 housing with 4 kids and have no electricity… How is that, when Section 8 by nature includes basic utilities? That is to say, a portion of whatever is paid must go to utilities? Their landlord takes the money out of the voucher, doesn’t s/he? Or are these people actually squatting? ---
**Author:** ![starwarsfreek42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@starwarsfreek42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/starwarsfreek42)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/377 "2010-08-14T07:25:16Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > > [@starwarsfreek42](#): > > > > Let’s assume for a moment that I live in Section 8 housing with 4 kids and have no electricity… > > How is that, when Section 8 by nature includes basic utilities? That is to say, a portion of whatever is paid must go to utilities? Their landlord takes the money out of the voucher, doesn’t s/he? Or are these people actually squatting? No, their landlord is a piece of shit. When the last tenants took too long to move out he came and took a piece out of their water meter so that they couldn’t have water. But, “basic utilities” to me does not mean electricity, it means water. I thought Section 8 houses got water and electricity was separate. Maybe it varies state to state? Also, **Magiver** : still waiting… ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/378 "2010-08-14T08:29:08Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > How is that, when Section 8 by nature includes basic utilities? … AIUI (like **starwarsfreek42** ) in some states\* “basic utilities” are just heat and hot water, electricity and, say, gas for cooking are solely the tenant’s responsibility. \*(And/or cities? IPS/IWBSI the housing laws in NY State ain’t the same as in NY City. (e.g., rent control?) > [@](#): > > … Under the voucher program, individuals or families with a voucher find and lease a unit (either in a specified complex or in the private sector) and pay a portion of the rent (based on income, but generally no more than 30% (40% being the maximum at time of lease-up) of the family’s income). … > … The PHA {public housing agency} pays the landlord the remainder of the rent over the tenant’s portion, subject to a cap referred to as “Fair Market Rent” (FMR) which is determined by HUD. FMR is determined by several factors, including:\* the geographic area (city or county) where the unit is located (generally, a unit in a metropolitan area will have a higher FMR) > > - the unit size (in terms of the number of bedrooms; generally, the more bedrooms the higher the FMR, while a studio apartment would be at the low end) > \*\*\* whether the owner or tenant will pay utilities (generally, FMR is higher for units where the owner pays utilities)\*\*…[RIGHT] **Bold** = **CMC** [CITE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_8_%28housing%29#Summary)[/RIGHT] And while HUD does do inspections of rental units for HUD’s Housing Quality Standards (HQS), and requires remediation of units that fail to meet the HQS, there’s no guaranty that six weeks later the unit won’t be back to it’s pre-HQS passing state. (There’s also no guaranty that the tenant will pay their portion of their rent\*, as my brother found out much to his delight ☹ (HUD requires that Section 8 tenants can only be evicted by judicial action, even where state law allows other procedures.) - A really stupid thing to do without an incredibly good reason since tenants can be permanently removed from the Section 8 program if they fail to pay their rent!) It’s also not exactly uncommon for ordinary tenants who’s rent includes basic utilities to not have them despite paying for them. You knew it was winter in the (NYC) tri-state area when you started seeing the PSAs telling you where to call to make an official complaint if you didn’t have heat. CMC fnord! Anybody want to calculate the cost of putting a child in foster-care in Twinkys/Bags o’ Chips? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/379 "2010-08-14T09:03:50Z")
> [@starwarsfreek42](#): > > What? People have lived without electricity for thousands and thousands of years. I’d argue that a house with no electricity is \*much \*safer than one with it. They have running water. They can afford food, or lights. Which would you choose? > > Back to the point. These people do not have a working stove or hot water. How do they cook beans, eggs, or frozen peas? I’m waiting. If they’ve lived for thousands of years without electricity then they would cook the frozen peas with wood on a grill. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410/380 "2010-08-14T12:50:49Z")
Let’s forget the section 8 people for the moment, because they are the relatively lucky ones. What about the guy I pass by almost every morning on my way to work, who lives in a slum motel downtown, and walks as far as four miles (maybe further, I don’t know) on crippled legs to get construction jobs two or maybe three times aweek. How is _he_ supposed to get by with rice, peas, and eggs? Hot plates, I guess, if they’re allowed in his unit and if he can buy an affordable one. But he probably doesn’t have a place to store the left-overs, having no refrigerator. I guess he, with his health and mental problems, should have to prepare the proper serving of rice, peas, and eggs everyday. Even if it’s not hard to make, most people would probably be real tired of eating that everyday. To make that meal palatable for _me_, I’d have to have some meat thrown in. Could someone buy, say, some smoked turkey to add some more protein, fat (necessary for brain development) and flavor? I’m just saying…I know I’m supposed to be poor and all, but give me _some_ motivation for life. We aren’t living in the “Grapes of Wrath” times. With all the food choices in the grocery store aisle, it would be cruel to tell someone, “Hey, put down that frozen pizza. Here’s this big bag of flour, big institutional size jar of tomato sauce, and a whole hunk of cheese. Make your own, and it’ll last an entire month!” Yeah, it might, but you might go out of your freakin’ mind eating that day after day after day. Someone brought up the excellent point, about many peope having food allergies. People can die from certain foods–peas and eggs being two of them. So there has to be flexibility in what a person can buy. I still think the government, if it wanted to promote healthy eating in the poor, could go about it in less restrictive ways. Offer up abandoned vacant lots for nominal prices and offer small grants to non-profits, faith-based or otherwise, to start up neighborhood gardens. Tax-free. Not only does it help to cover the “food desert” problem, but it gets people active in their communities, especially kids, and teaches them how good fresh produce tastes. (I didn’t grow up poor, but my parents did. They grew up on canned vegetables and continued with this tradition with their own children, a habit which made me despise ALL vegetables. That is, until I discovered fresh stuff and I saw that I had been kept away from deliciousness for a good part of my life). It could also create jobs for people and teach them how to do their _own_ gardens. Another idea: let small farmers set up stands in poor neighborhoods. Another way to bring produce to the masses. Another off the wall suggestion: if someone has a relatively small amount allotted to them from SNAP (such as a single person with a part-time minimal wage job, who only gets $50 a month in food stamps), then offer them vouchers up to certain amount exclusively for fresh fruits and vegetables. Or program EBT card to “roll-over” some amount of money from month to month for every pound of fruits and vegetables purchased. Like if you buy six pounds of fresh fruit one month, then that equates to six dollars (or whatever) added to your allotment next month. We could do things that would encourage people to eat healthy foods, without being all “big brother” on their food choices. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-only-be-allowed-to-purchase-ingredients-with-food-stamps/549410.md?page=20)