Should people only be allowed to purchase ingredients with food stamps?

Great Debates
121

Correct. I am an intelligent and educated person who happens to be poor. Now that we have agreed that poor does not equal stupid how about you pull your nose out of my grocery cart and mind your own business?

You do realize that for some of us this debate is not academic? There are poor people in this very thread (other than just me) and some of us are speaking with the voice of experience.

There are valid reasons why, for instance, a poor person might posses an iPhone, or purchase frozen dinners, and so on. They have been detailed in this thread. They have been detailed in other threads. 99% of those reasons have zero to do with being “stupid” as you put it. Let’s review a few:

  1. Homeless with no access to a proper kitchen

  2. Working long hours for shit wages that leaves little time for cooking

  3. Unsafe living conditions where appliances either can’t work (power shut off) or are dangerous to leave unsupervised (bad wiring, etc.)

  4. Disabled people physically unable to safely do some types of food preparation. (a.k.a. sure, force my husband to cook from scratch - and YOU get to take him to the ER when he cuts/burns/otherwise injuries himself and, oh yes, medical bill are on you, too)

  5. Lack of access to proper grocery stores - Detroit, for example, has no supermarkets or grocery stores, just “quickie marts” and Eastern Market.

and… waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down on the list:

#n) Stupid

122

That’s pretty asinine. That would be as bright as me saying that anyone who is on here posting should shut up about being poor because they have a computer, internet access and time to be online. Sell your computer, don’t pay for internet access and take that time and improve your life!

See how dumb that sounds?

123

Particularly since anyone in this thread may be posting from a free terminal in a public library rather than paying for internet service on a privately owned machine. For some reason, the Snarkies don’t seem to think poor people use libraries.

124

Is my nose in your grocery cart? I simply said “lack of knowledge” and “lack of time” are poor arguments. The only one you have there is “lack of time” and I still think that is a poor arguement - there are tons of meals that can be made in 15 minutes or less. I had two kids, worked full time, went to school half time, and somehow, we managed to eat something other than frozen pizza. I know lack of time.

125

I know you’re trying to educate people in this thread and I think that’s great. Like I mentioned above, I don’t think we should be demanding what people buy with their food stamps. I really don’t.

But I think, like other topics on the dope, people tend to get too wrapped up (as I think you are) in “proving” their point with a bunch of what-ifs that are probably not the norm like “what if some drunk runs through your tomato patch!?!” I really don’t think those examples help.

Yes, people do sometimes post from a public library. Is that where you are right now? Do you really think that most people who post online who say they are poor are posting from the public library? How about when they post late at night?

Do you really think the majority of people on food stamps are out looking for a job 30-40 hours a week? Really and truly, you believe that? Just because you did doesn’t mean everyone does.

I saw so much waste and overheard so much stuff when I was a cashier in college. Then working as a nurse in the emergency department I witnessed so much abuse of health cards. People coming in for things that aren’t anywhere close to being an emergency. A huge waste of tax payer money BUT I would never think we should do away with health cards. People, no matter their income, deserve health care in this country IMHO.

I bring this up because I think that in ANY argument if you try to cling to the what-ifs that are not the norm you lose people and, quite frankly, you’re not doing any good. Why? Because MOST people who are suffering (whether it’s drug addiction, obesity, being poor, etc etc) are not part of that what-if category.

That doesn’t mean they “deserve” to be poor because they have a crockpot and a kitchen. That doesn’t mean that they’re bad parents because they feed their kids convenience food.

This economy is still pretty bad. I’m very fortunate that I’ve never known poverty. I think that a lot of people need help these days that never needed it before because of the economy. I also think (and riding with the ambulance crews to houses opened my eyes to this) that a GREAT deal of people who are poor are stuck in situations that they just plain don’t know how to get out of. Their families have always been poor and this is what they’ve learned. It’s hard to concentrate on getting yourself out of a bad situation if you’re focused on just surviving.

Still, let’s dial it back on the “what if!” situations that probably are the exception and not the norm, huh?

126

Reminds me of Lake Woebegon, where all the children are above average.

What do Americans say when they want to rid themselves of responsibility for the poor? We say that they are lazy and stupid, that if they were smart and ambitious, they would prosper, because the sacred Free Market rewards the ambitious and smart, without fail.

But how much of this is a decision? Lets set aside lazy/hard-working for the moment, and concentrate on smart/dumb. We have ample reason to suggest that smart is in-born, we have a certain set of inborn intellectual capacities that can be enhanced by education, but there are limits. Speaking for myself, I am a mathtard, try as I will, anything beyond Algebra 1 is forever closed to me.

We tend to have contempt for stupid (well, duh!) But worse, we tend to think that being smarter than another makes the other your natural prey, if you can outsmart him, you deserve what he has. Now, this is fair in say, a game of poker or monopoly, when all the participants have the option of playing or not playing, because if your not smart enough to play, its dumb for you to play, so its your fault. See the problem?

We love to say stuff like “Well, I faced these difficult choices, and made good decisions, so they can as well!” But that very same person will pat themselves on the back for being smarter, as though smart were a virtue rather than a characteristic! We would not accept someone doing without simply because they are not tall, but we are perfectly willing to let people suffer if they are not smart! Even as we are pleased with ourselves for being smarter, a characteristic we most likely inherited…we scold people for not having the same set of inherited characteristics, even as we know full well it is not a decision someone could make!

We are all about congratulating ourselves for the opportunities we make for the smart and ambitious. What do we do for those of us who are not? We applaud ourselves for making a world where the exceptionally gifted can acheive exceptional rewards, and call it just and fair, because, after all, we have no unnatural impediments to limit them, they are free!

But what about everybody else? We sternly rebuke those foolish enough to get themselves into mortgages they cannot afford, but have nothing to say about the people who sold them. Are the dumb the natural prey of the smart? If it is wrong for you to take advantage of someone because you are taller, why is it moral to take advantage because you are smarter?

Italy has painters and opera singers, the Germans, engineers, the Irish poets and musicians, the French have a gift for ending military confrontations quickly… America has salesmen. America rewards the sharp trader, the clever advocate. And we accept that as “natural”, as though it adhered to some divine order of things.

Perhaps its time we asked ourselves why?

127

The aforementioned arguments that they “don’t know how to cook” and “don’t have time to cook” that are spread all over this thread. Apparently they are so stupid that throwing cornmeal into boiling water for ten minutes is beyond them (but can manage ramen noodles) and so time constrained that scrambled eggs take too long (but frozen pizza they can wait for). I don’t buy that. I think that the poor make choices - choices they have been enculturated to make. But that me sitting here making excuses for them does them no favors.

Other arguments I do buy - lack of grocery stores that Broomstick points out is a real problem. Being homeless is a real barrier to eating nutritionally (although I think if you are homeless, you have more urgent needs than making sure your diet is better than frozen burritos). But I’ve stopped buying the “don’t have time” and “don’t know how to cook” arguments.

128

There are so, so many reasons why this would never work.

Many people on food stamps are disabled, elderly, homeless, living in places with no cooking facilities, etc, etc, etc. Also, there are HUGE logistical problems with this. Who is going to decide what does and does not qualify? New food products come out constantly. And the producers would fight a decision to not allow them. The criteria used would be arbitrary, at best.

I will say that I get food stamps. I buy a lot of “ingredients” but I also buy a lot of pre-made food. There’s a discount grocery store (Grocery Outlet) right by my building and I often go there and buy things like frozen organic vegetarian burritos, which are both healthy and cheap (at that store…they’re very expensive elsewhere). Sometimes I buy junk like chips too. Often I go to a better grocery store and have a custom sandwich made for me at the deli. It’s fairly costly, but healthy (lots of veggies, no mayo or meat, etc.). If I can make my allotment feed me and my daughter the whole month, why should anyone care? I live in an area where food is on the expensive side, and still have over a thousand dollars left over in my food stamp account, from leftover money that carries over. So I buy what I want, while still being value-conscious overall.

I hate to cook (but do anyway sometimes, and prepare uncooked food more often, which is at least as good as cooking…for example, raw veggies are generally more nutritious than cooked), and lately there’s something wrong with me that makes it very, very difficult for me to cook even if I do want to. I don’t feel that anyone would be served by forcing me to purchase only “ingredients”. Except I guess it might be a fun power/superiority trip for conservatives.

129

As it happens, no, but I did thoroughly investigate doing so when I was laid off, and I have, in fact, cruised the internet at my local library on several occasions, both for my own person enjoyment (it’s cheap entertainment) and doing research for job hunting.

On another message board I frequent we have two members who are homeless yet manage to post on a regular basis from their local library. Not that they usually admit that on line. There is, after all, a great deal of stigma associated with poverty and homelessness.

Not so much - although some libraries do stay open into the evening I don’t recall any available at, say, 2 am.

Yeah, I really believe that because in my state if you DON’T provide proof you’re job hunting on that level you lose your food stamps. In other words, in my state, yeah, I really believe that because I’ve been through the system myself. It has also been stated here that those in Illinois are forced to pay the state back through labor for their food stamps. Perhaps it is you who need to re-evaluate your view of this.

There are some exceptions for disabled people and those with young children… but yes, most people on food stamps have to look for work or lose that benefit.

Which, perhaps, is all the more reason why I keep pointing things like state requirements for job hunting to receive benefits. You don’t have personal experience with this, but some of us here do. And we keep saying that food stamps are not the free ride you seem to think they are.

And I keep telling you - some of what you think are exceptions ARE the norm!

Yes, there are some “generational” poor families. It is certainly much harder to climb out of poverty if that’s all you’ve ever known. But those folks are a smaller percentage of poor people than most people seem to think.

130

Since you’ve decided to take the holier-than-thou route and want to educate and cause re-evaulation you can explain to me how they PROVE that they are out there for that many hours?

Is it that they have to write down in a booklet or report so many contacts per week? Do they put you on a GPS system so they know you’re out walking around pounding the pavement? Is Illinois the exception to the rule of there being a shortage of workers who have time to research to make sure people are doing what they should?

If you’re going to take the snotty route (especially with people who AGREE with you that we shouldn’t put these restrictions on assistance) then I doubt you’re going to be changing anyone’s mind.

I see you give me a few anecdotes about YOU using a library computer and a few people on another message board doing the same. So you think these examples are the rule? Yes, you keep saying some of these things ARE the norm. Which things? And do you have cites besides your buddies on your message board?

Now if you’ll excuse me… I think a drunk driver just ran through my tomato patch…

131

If people want to use their monthly allotment on calorie-rich food, who cares? It’s not like they get more money when they run out before the end of the month. They should have enough brains to figure that out for themselves, and if they make seemingly wrong choices, so what? Whose business is it if it’s they don’t make what you consider healthful or economical choices? The only option I can see is to simply hand out packages of rice, beans, peanut butter and cheese/tofu every month with a smaller amount of discretionary money on a card to use to supplement those, and that would be a ridiculous hassle. Why not just let them buy what they want up to their allotted amount?

FWIW, I don’t think that “because we feel bad about being poor” is a good reason to justify buying crap food. I DO think that “because it’s no one else’s business as it’s not affecting how much we receive” IS a good reason.

132

They already tried that with the Commodity Foods program that I mentioned earlier.

It turns out that distributing food to the poor via the same channels used to distribute food to the wealthy and middle class is more efficient than building a parallel system operated by the government. And of course the benefits to the rest of the economy by increasing retail sales.

I think some people would not be satisfied with the poor getting anything better than this.

133

Uh-oh. Another Broomstick pile-on.

Has it already been mentioned that buying ingredients does not always equal “healthy?” Such a rule would not keep someone from eating fried chicken, buttermilk biscuits, and 4-cheese macaroni and cheese every night (did I just make myself hungry? I think I did). Or, make delicious but ever-so-lethal concoctions like my morbidly obese babysitter used to make. Cheese grits swimming in butter, chock full of Jimmy Dean sausage.

Someone who is going to spend all their foodstamps on Doritos, soda, and Twinkies isn’t going to suddenly become more health-minded once you ban those things. They will just work around it. As long as cooking oil is on the approved list, people will be frying up a storm and frying things you’d never think to fry. A childhood friend’s favorite snack was fried sandwich bread, covered in sugar. So easy to make a child can do it. As long as flour, butter, eggs, and sugar are allowed, people will be making cakes and cookies. As long as meat is allowed, people will gravitate towards the fattest, least healthiest parts and cuts.

Soups aren’t necessarily healthy, either. Anyone heard of gumbo? Good stuff, but it’s not going to help your wasteline go down. Anything with cream-of-whatever in it is going to make you fat. That includes a lot of casserole dishes and smothered chicken/pork chops. And don’t even think about meat loaf! Store-bought meat loaf is probably leagues healthier than the wonderful, heavenly gravy-laden creation my mother would make.

Actually, if a poor person wanted to eat healthily and/or not overeat, it may make more sense for them to get some processed foods–which have detailed nutrition information. With a Lean Cuisine entree, for instance, you know you’re getting 250-300 calories. If you try to imitate the same meal, using purchased ingredients, you’ll have to make a big batch of it because you can’t go to the store and buy just 4 ounces of pasta. So if you aren’t careful, you could easily overeat.

This discussion reminds me of a documentary I watched a long time ago. A poor town was quickly becoming gentrified, and the folks moving in wanted the only store in the town to become a co-op, serving mostly organic health foods. There was an uproar from the long-time residents, who were worried about the hippies taking away their Wonder bread. The film discussed how everything in our society, including the very foods we eat, are marked by class. Wonder bread = poor people food. White wheat bread = middle class people food. Whole, seven-grain, make-you-poop-twigs-for-a-month bread = rich people food.

Of course, the rich people felt like the poor people were just stupid mouth-breathers who should immediately appreciate the benefits of whole wheat over white bread–despite the big difference in price. But they didn’t seem to understand or care that even though they were right about the health aspect, you still can’t make people change their eating habits by stigmitizing them or limiting their choices.

After a bunch of town halls, they decided the new store would sell both types of bread. The whole situation was both crazy and enlightening.

134

For the record, when I was unemployed and living on $140 a week (no food stamps) I did keep my internet connection. Even when I had no gas, no food, and no job prospects, I had that internet connection. I would have lost my mind without it. I never used the library’s computers, and when I go to the library I don’t see homeless or apparently destitute people using the internet. There’s my anecdote.

135

Some sort of Net connection is essential to be able to apply for a job. The Burger King two blocks away from my apartment no longer has job applications. No, they have a “Take-A-Check” style dispenser that gives the applicant a small tab of paper - with a web address to fill out an application.

You literally cannot get a job at Burger King without an Internet connection.

136

Yeah, I got my current job online. They absolutely do not have paper applications, so if I hadn’t kept that internet connection then I would not be employed right now.

137

I am on food stamps right now.

I just bought almost a month’s worth of food. Not a Ho Ho or a soda in sight, mostly because I’d be ashamed to buy them with my EBT card. I do buy flour, sugar, vanilla and other things to make an occasional batch of cookies. I did buy some of those all fruit popsicles for my daughter’s after-school snacks but even that makes me feel bad. People do NOT need that junk food. I will never defend buying junk food with an EBT card.

There should be a limit on the junk food you can buy, but who determines the junk food? I hear more complaints about buying steak and lobster, which I won’t buy either. For two hundred dollars I got breakfast, lunch and dinner foods with some fruit and nuts for snacking on. If I wasted the funds on cakes and cookies or chips I wouldn’t be able to feed my family dinner. I can’t keep it around anyway because I binge.

I understand if homeless people have no place to keep food or cook but if they’re buying cakes and chips they might as well not be eating at all. I worked as a cashier for years; I knew most of my customers and knew that many of them made incredibly poor choices with their allotted funds, food stamps or not. It’s just more irksome when you see people buying crap on government funds. If those homeless people weren’t able to BUY them they’d buy something else, possibly something that should be qualified as nutritive food instead of carby glop that just causes you to want more carby glop.

Don’t understand why one wouldn’t know someone else was using an EBT card. Usually people say “food stamps” or “EBT” loud enough for at least a few people to hear. And the card says “EBT” on it. If you don’t specify whether you’re using the food or cash portion the cashier has to ask sometimes. On some registers you can just key it with your PIN on the little pad, otherwise everyone knows you’re a big poor loser (and I imagine they’ll look at my cart to see if I’m being naughty with their tax money). To me, it’s incredibly embarrassing to even be using them but we have to eat, and we don’t have the money lately. Guess that’s one of the reasons we pay taxes.

138

We actually did this but almost everything we planted has been unsuccessful. That’s been a major disappointment because we planted a LOT because we were given a freezer. I planned to can and freeze everything I could this year. We tried to plan ahead.

139

I really don’t see how it’s punishment if you’re giving someone nutrition they can’t get on their own.

And like I said, I’m on food stamps. REALLY glad I don’t have to live on Ensure though.

140

You ask my why I think it is the norm that food stamp recipients really are looking for work, then call me “holier than thou” when I tell you my reason, that is, I have actual experience in the program? How odd…

Actually, I’m in Indiana - what I know of Illinois is what has been reported in this thread and others.

That said - Yes, you have to report every single contact, giving not only a company name, address, and phone number but the actual phone number and name of whomever you spoke with at the potential job site. And they will call that person and confirm that yes, you did speak with them about a job. When I was initially put into the program we were required to do our computer searches at the IMPACT office for an initial time period where the staff could observe whether or not we were actually looking for work, but some many people have been dumped into the program that became impractical. So we then had to move on to printing out the sites we visited, the screens we filled out, and the “thank you for submitting” messages we got, copies of job-seeking related e-mail. and yes they followed up on that as much as possible as well. They also credited you only so much time per such website, regardless of how long it took you to actually navigate the site. There were required on-site meetings with potential employers. In other words, yes, they were checking up on your efforts. Could someone scam such a system? Well, probably, people can be pretty darn clever, but really, to me it would seem to be more effort to do that than to simply comply.

I"m sorry? Again, you asked how I was so certain of my position and I told you. I"m sorry you took that as a personal insult. Your belief that food stamp recipients don’t have to look for work is simply wrong, and I know this because of direct experience.

I suppose I could give you phone numbers, but I’m not sure the local Public Aid office will even answer the phone, much less accommodate your questions.

As I said, i do have personal experience - but I suppose my personal experience doesn’t count as reality.

I’m not the only person to have mentioned the work/looking for work requirements - I suppose you think the others are also “holier-than-thou”?

Hmmm… what would you accept as proof? Or is it so hard for you to reconsider your position that nothing I offer will appease you?