# Should people who intentionally try to spread HIV be convicted of attempted murder? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401 "2008-11-12T19:44:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hi\_Neighbor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hi_neighbor/32/494_2.png) [@Hi\_Neighbor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hi_Neighbor)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/1 "2008-11-12T19:44:30Z")
After reading [this](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27681660/) story from MSNBC, it got me wondering. In this case, the major reason that the suspects were not charged with attempted murder was because: > [@](#): > > Dutch courts have held that HIV is a chronic illness rather than an inevitably fatal one. What about in other countries, such as the U.S.? Or certain African countries? Would an attempted murder charge be appropriate? Too harsh/lenient? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/2 "2008-11-12T19:47:28Z")
Yes. Just because the act does not result in death doesn’t mean that wasn’t the goal. Any person infected with HIV would reasonably feel that they had a now-finite time to live. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Hi\_Neighbor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hi_neighbor/32/494_2.png) [@Hi\_Neighbor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hi_Neighbor)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/3 "2008-11-12T19:59:07Z")
I think determining if it was intentional or not would be a big problem. Also, if someone with HIV raped another person, would they then be charged with rape and attempted murder? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/4 "2008-11-12T20:06:15Z")
Yep. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/5 "2008-11-12T20:07:07Z")
HIV is not the death sentence it once was…at least in the US. Currently if you are able to take the drug cocktails they have now I think the jury is out on your life expectancy (no one knows how long you will go yet). As such I doubt you could get an attempted murder charge to stick. That said, if it was the way it used to be where people died miserably inside of a few years and someone who _knew_ they had HIV had sex (particularly unprotected sex) with someone without informing them of their HIV status I’d be willing to consider an attempted murder charge. If an HIV infected person rapes someone or bites a cop (or otherwise assaults someone in a way where infecting the person is likely) I’d be all for tossing them in jail for attempted murder. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Beginning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@New\_Beginning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Beginning)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/6 "2008-11-12T20:24:14Z")
If it’s intentional, yes of course. Now, as mentioned by whack-a-mole, HIV is not a death sentence, so perhaps “attempted murder” isn’t appropriate, but anyone who tries to infect someone else with some horrible disease certainly deserves to be locked away, no matter what you want to call it. ---
**Author:** ![Hi\_Neighbor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hi_neighbor/32/494_2.png) [@Hi\_Neighbor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hi_Neighbor)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/7 "2008-11-12T20:30:00Z")
> [@New\_Beginning](#): > > …anyone who tries to infect someone else with some horrible disease certainly deserves to be locked away, no matter what you want to call it. This raises another question. What if a person intentionally infects another with influenza? Or perhaps a virus that is highly fatal? What about an illness that is merely a minor nuisance? Should the sentence range from simple assault to attempted murder? Or something less or more, depending on the disease used in the attack? ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/8 "2008-11-12T20:30:53Z")
I’d say yes, charge him or her with attempted murder. I see the point about HIV not being the death sentence it once was, but can’t we say the same thing about being shot in the gut or stabbed with a knife? Livesaving techniques have improved and lessened the chance of death for victims of all kinds of attacks, but it doesn’t change the intent of the attacker. ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/9 "2008-11-12T21:06:26Z")
Many people I know do not believe that HIV (which is a retrovirus, one of hundreds in the human body) has anything to do with the development of the immune depressing illnesses which make up the syndrome known as AIDS. Quite a few people still do not believe there is any link. [http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/](http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/) “If there is evidence that HIV causes AIDS, there should be scientific documents which either singly or collectively demonstrate that fact, at least with a high probability. There is no such document.” Dr. Kary Mullis, Biochemist, 1993 Nobel Prize for Chemistry. “Up to today there is actually no single scientifically really convincing evidence for the existence of HIV. Not even once such a retrovirus has been isolated and purified by the methods of classical virology.” Dr. Heinz Ludwig Sanger, Emeritus Professor of Molecular Biology and Virology, Max-Planck-Institutes for Biochemy, Munchen. So no- not until people can agree that it has a direct link. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/10 "2008-11-12T21:26:08Z")
> [@gurujulp](#): > > Many people I know do not believe that HIV (which is a retrovirus, one of hundreds in the human body) has anything to do with the development of the immune depressing illnesses which make up the syndrome known as AIDS. Good grief. How does the National Institute of Health strike you as a responsible source that HIV causes AIDS? > [@](#): > > **EVIDENCE THAT HIV CAUSES AIDS > HIV fulfills Koch’s postulates as the cause of AIDS.** > > Among many criteria used over the years to prove the link between putative pathogenic (disease-causing) agents and disease, perhaps the most-cited are Koch’s postulates, developed in the late 19th century. Koch’s postulates have been variously interpreted by many scientists, and modifications have been suggested to accommodate new technologies, particularly with regard to viruses (Harden. Pubbl Stn Zool Napoli [II] 1992;14:249; O’Brien, Goedert. Curr Opin Immunol 1996;8:613). However, the basic tenets remain the same, and for more than a century Koch’s postulates, as listed below, have served as the litmus test for determining the cause of any epidemic disease: > > 1. Epidemiological association: the suspected cause must be strongly associated with the disease. > 2. Isolation: the suspected pathogen can be isolated - and propagated - outside the host. > 3. Transmission pathogenesis: transfer of the suspected pathogen to an uninfected host, man or animal, produces the disease in that host. > > With regard to postulate #1, numerous studies from around the world show that virtually all AIDS patients are HIV-seropositive; that is they carry antibodies that indicate HIV infection. With regard to postulate #2, modern culture techniques have allowed the isolation of HIV in virtually all AIDS patients, as well as in almost all HIV-seropositive individuals with both early- and late-stage disease. In addition, the polymerase chain (PCR) and other sophisticated molecular techniques have enabled researchers to document the presence of HIV genes in virtually all patients with AIDS, as well as in individuals in earlier stages of HIV disease. > > Postulate #3 has been fulfilled in tragic incidents involving three laboratory workers with no other risk factors who have developed AIDS or severe immunosuppression after accidental exposure to concentrated, cloned HIV in the laboratory. In all three cases, HIV was isolated from the infected individual, sequenced and shown to be the infecting strain of virus. In another tragic incident, transmission of HIV from a Florida dentist to six patients has been documented by genetic analyses of virus isolated from both the dentist and the patients. The dentist and three of the patients developed AIDS and died, and at least one of the other patients has developed AIDS. Five of the patients had no HIV risk factors other than multiple visits to the dentist for invasive procedures (O’Brien, Goedert. Curr Opin Immunol 1996;8:613; O’Brien, 1997; Ciesielski et al. Ann Intern Med 1994;121:886). > > SOURCE: [The page you’re looking for isn’t available | NIAID: National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases](http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/evidhiv.htm) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/11 "2008-11-12T22:24:14Z")
Yes, unless the infected person dies, in which case they should be charged with murder. ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/12 "2008-11-12T22:49:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Good grief. > > How does the National Institute of Health strike you as a responsible source that HIV causes AIDS? I am undecided. I don’t have _any_ desire to catch any new disease or retrovirus so I am careful anyway… I do think that other things than HIV (like abuse of stimulant drugs, among others) can cause AIDS, but I don’t know whether HIV does. Again, many people I _know_ are violently anti-HIV=AIDS, and I agree with them on other sort-of conspiracy-theory opinions, but I am not enough of a doctor to know. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/13 "2008-11-12T22:51:40Z")
> [@gurujulp](#): > > Again, many people I _know_ are violently anti-HIV=AIDS, and I agree with them on other sort-of conspiracy-theory opinions, but I am not enough of a doctor to know. How much of a doctor are you? ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/14 "2008-11-12T22:54:36Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > How much of a doctor are you? :smack: touche- Only my left big toe! I am none of a doctor- but one of my best friends is a heart surgeon… any of that rub off on me? 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/15 "2008-11-12T22:55:27Z")
I’d lean toward assault, or assault with a deadly weapon, rather than attempted murder. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/16 "2008-11-12T22:56:45Z")
Yes; assault with a deadly weapon at the least. I suppose an equivalent would be walking up to a guy you know owns a bulletproof vest and shooting him, hoping he’s wearing it. Because those drugs aren’t perfect, you know, and AIDS is always mutating. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/17 "2008-11-12T22:56:56Z")
> [@gurujulp](#): > > I am undecided. I don’t have _any_ desire to catch any new disease or retrovirus so I am careful anyway… > > I do think that other things than HIV (like abuse of stimulant drugs, among others) can cause AIDS, but I don’t know whether HIV does. > > Again, many people I _know_ are violently anti-HIV=AIDS, and I agree with them on other sort-of conspiracy-theory opinions, but I am not enough of a doctor to know. Then educate yourself. Follow the link I provided above. There is a LOT more there backing the idea that HIV causes AIDS (granted AIDS may have other causes but that in no way precludes HIV from doing it too). The correlation between HIV and AIDS is dramatic and exceptionally well documented. Unless you are buying in to a global conspiracy (not just the NIH have this conclusion…so do the major health organizations around the world) then there is no other conclusion than HIV causes AIDS. If you are buying a global conspiracy then you have other issues to deal with and nothing will convince you. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/18 "2008-11-12T23:00:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, if someone with HIV raped another person, would they then be charged with rape and attempted murder? Let’s up the ante on that one. What if a person with HIV engages in voluntary sex with someone without disclosing their infection? There’s no other crime involved, so it can’t be felony murder. And the intent is not to cause harm to the other person, but simply to get laid (which is probably harder if your prospective partner knows that you’re HIV-positive). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/19 "2008-11-12T23:02:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Let’s up the ante on that one. What if a person with HIV engages in voluntary sex with someone without disclosing their infection? There’s no other crime involved, so it can’t be felony murder. And the intent is not to cause harm to the other person, but simply to get laid (which is probably harder if your prospective partner knows that you’re HIV-positive). Reckless endangerment ? “Depraved indifference to human life” is a legal term as well I think. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401/20 "2008-11-12T23:11:12Z")
You should be charged with murder or assault leading to severe handicap. Even if today you have drugs which can treat AIDS, the treatment is very expensive, it carries some serious side effects which in itself will damage your health and severely restrict your life, your ability to have children is destroyed or made very hard, etc. It’s not like giving your girlfriend the flu or even syphilis or some such thing. (And here is Sweden going boinkers: [Decriminalize spread of HIV’: agency](http://www.thelocal.se/15136/20081022/)) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-intentionally-try-to-spread-hiv-be-convicted-of-attempted-murder/472401.md?page=2)