# Should people who make racist remarks be fired? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 3, 2015, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150 "2015-05-03T12:34:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/21 "2015-05-03T17:14:26Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’d agree with most of what’s been said here. It comes down to the impact on the job. People have a right to be racist and stupid, but not if it’s affecting their job. And sometimes stupidity can be cured with education so termination isn’t always the only solution. I used to be one to make controversial remarks. I said things that were blatantly racist just to get a rise out of people. Well to be more accurate, I very infrequently did this but the things I did say were quite shocking and very inappropriate. I have changed a lot since then. (This was back in 2008). What I have learned since then was, if I wouldn’t say it in front of my friends who were black then I probably shouldn’t say it at all. The racist jokes I made back then were made in front of white people… anyway, through refraining from vocalizing these thoughts I eventually learned they were wrong and, for the most part, don’t even think that way anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/22 "2015-05-03T18:59:31Z")
I find the poll hard to answer because hypothetical persons 2/3 are presented as being either an owner or a manager, when really an owner has to be treated differently. Namely, the owner cannot be fired against his will and for sole proprietors their business and their person are essentially one. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/23 "2015-05-03T21:17:24Z")
Type of job matters here, too. I’m a teacher. No way anyone should be teaching people they consider inherently defective. Or think about a paealegal, a hospital orderly, a social worker, etc. Racist attitudes could make a real difference in performance there. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/24 "2015-05-03T22:40:05Z")
To be honest? No. If it is an official company policy that \ is refused \, then it becomes an issue. Words are nothing. Hell, I have been called cunt to my face, words are only as powerful as you want to make them. Actions are what count. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/25 "2015-05-03T23:08:43Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > To be honest? No. If it is an official company policy that \ is refused \, then it becomes an issue. Words are nothing. > > Hell, I have been called cunt to my face, words are only as powerful as you want to make them. Actions are what count. But words allow a climate where people can put together an unofficial, and even subconscious, policy of discrimination. In other words, words facilitate actions. I can live with people calling me names, but calling one set of people names and not calling another set names is an action: it’s different treatment based on (X). Edit: it’s the same with jokes. The individual jokes themselves are often funny, but you can quickly get a feel for the climate by who tells what kind of jokes and how often. Without anyone saying or doing anything overtly negative, just spreading laughter, you can create a climate where it becomes clear that discrimination against (X) will be tolerated or not taken seriously enough. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/26 "2015-05-03T23:12:49Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Edit: it’s the same with jokes. The individual jokes themselves are often funny, but you can quickly get a feel for the climate by who tells what kind of jokes and how often. Without anyone saying or doing anything overtly negative, just spreading laughter, you can create a climate where it becomes clear that discrimination against (X) will be tolerated or not taken seriously enough. that’s very astute ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/27 "2015-05-03T23:19:26Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > But words allow a climate where people can put together an unofficial, and even subconscious, policy of discrimination. In other words, words facilitate actions. > > I can live with people calling me names, but calling one set of people names and not calling another set names is an action: it’s different treatment based on (X). Exactly. When you’re working alongside someone, you’d like to be able to assume that they will have your back. Sometimes this trust is a matter of life or death. It’s hard to have trust in someone if they’re on the record as hating your group. Even if there were no life or death implications, it would freak me out to have to be partnered with someone I knew didn’t like me for irrational reasons. I’d be constantly worried about sabotage and back-stabbery. I wouldn’t want to work at a place where management didn’t take those concerns seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/28 "2015-05-03T23:44:11Z")
There’s a reason companies generally have a Disciplinary Path, a series of escalating warnings before termination. The organization should follow it’s process. The point of discipline is to teach, and to change behavior. Termination for a first offense should be pretty rare. Of course, context means everything, every situation is different. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/29 "2015-05-04T01:25:45Z")
Right, I was in a hurry when I posted my first response. I should clarify that even in the “not fired” situations I mentioned, there are still likely to be other consequences, such as social ostracization or being made to take corporate sensitivity training. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/30 "2015-05-04T03:15:56Z")
I don’t believe in at will employment, so no, not unless it seriously damages their job performance. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/31 "2015-05-04T05:32:46Z")
Fired on all counts assuming this happened at work. If the public figure is an elected official; then no disciplinary action should be taken. For the simple reason the people get exactly what they fucking deserve. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/32 "2015-05-04T06:09:49Z")
Depends on the remark and the intention behind it. Since the word “microaggression” has been in vogue lately, I’ll comment that microaggressions should not be a fireable offense: > **[Microaggression](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microaggression_theory)** > > Microaggression is a term used for commonplace daily verbal, behavioral or environmental slights, whether intentional or unintentional, that communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative attitudes toward stigmatized or culturally marginalized groups. The term was coined by Harvard University psychiatrist Chester M. Pierce in 1970 to describe insults and dismissals which he regularly witnessed non-black Americans inflicting on African Americans. By the early 21st century, use of the A number of sc... Only statements where it is reasonable to assume that the intention was racist should result in firing, because intentional racism is an attempt at discrimination or intimidation. I’ll also add that anyone who spends at least twenty seconds pontificating on an racial issue in a totally ignorant way, you should strongly consider replacing them. Such as Harry Reid commenting on Barack Obama’s speaking abilities: > **[Reid apologizes for racial remarks about Obama during campaign - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/01/09/obama.reid/index.html)** > > Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid apologized Saturday for making racially insensitive remarks about Barack Obama during the presidential campaign. Then again, in a country where age discrimination is also illegal, perhaps we should give a pass to people who are old and say racist stuff, as long as it is isn’t hateful? ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/33 "2015-05-04T12:00:16Z")
I’m assuming that for a worker, the statement was uttered in the workplace? Above worker, I’m assuming any public statement? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/34 "2015-05-04T12:04:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Depends on the remark and the intention behind it. Since the word “microaggression” has been in vogue lately, I’ll comment that microaggressions should not be a fireable offense: > > [Microaggression - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microaggression_theory) > > Only statements where it is reasonable to assume that the intention was racist should result in firing, because intentional racism is an attempt at discrimination or intimidation. > > I’ll also add that anyone who spends at least twenty seconds pontificating on an racial issue in a totally ignorant way, you should strongly consider replacing them. Such as Harry Reid commenting on Barack Obama’s speaking abilities: > > [http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/01/09/obama.reid/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/01/09/obama.reid/index.html) > > Then again, in a country where age discrimination is also illegal, perhaps we should give a pass to people who are old and say racist stuff, as long as it is isn’t hateful? > [@ratatoskK](#): > > I’m assuming that for a worker, the statement was uttered in the workplace? Above worker, I’m assuming any public statement? Thanks for reminding me of Microagressions. I had forgotten about that. As to the second person, yes, the statements were made at the workplace. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/35 "2015-05-04T13:56:05Z")
I’m kind of in a quandary about this. On one hand, I find the racist views abhorrent, but on the other hand, I _really_ don’t like the idea of enforcing my beliefs on others. Ultimately racism isn’t “special” in the context of the OP’s question though. The same rules would apply if it was something overtly sexist, religiously bigoted, homophobic, etc… I guess if the person is in a position where they’re explicitly the voice of the company (i.e. PR staff, spokespeople, salespeople, etc…) OR, they’re in a position where they’re perceived as the voice of the company (upper management), and I was the owner of the company, then yes, they’d get shit-canned. However, if they’re not in a position to be perceived as the voice of the company, then no, not necessarily fired. That would go under a disciplinary path about hostile workplaces- ultimately it’s no different than sexual harassment, religious persecution or bullying, etc… in that it makes the workplace unpleasant and hostile to people. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/36 "2015-05-04T14:40:44Z")
From my Dutch POV, I’d say that curtailing racism in speech has at the same time gone too far and not far enough. And that the emphasis on speech distracts from the institutional racism that’s rampant. Police violence, hiring discrimination, even the way traffic fines demand a person to appear in court and lose a day’s pay if they can’t get a lawyer are all examples of that. In any group, there will be some good natured, (or just frustrated) ribbing between perceived groups of people. Such remarks can be taken as banter, or they can lead to conversations that clear the air like "what do you mean we at accounting/ we texans/ we liberals/ we atheists/ we hispanics always do X? " Both are good. It seems to me it has nearly become impossible to have such conversations if such remarks are made about anything concerning black people. There is such a heavy taboo on this with well meaning people that at least my own inner response if I talk to a black person for the first time is: “I hope I get to end this conversation soon without saying anything wrong”. Because the social punishment for saying something wrong, is horrible. And that punishment comes actually more from PC white people then black people. At the same time there’s a lot of oldfashioned racism, the kind old drunk uncles spout at Thanksgiving. Right after they bash blacks and women and gays and libruls and whomever. While that is hurtful and very distasteful, it is important to remember that mostly, such uncles are powerless. Fighting them doesn’t win a war, it just ruins Thanksgiving. [Manners are a better solution then picking a fight.](https://resistracism.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/miss-manners-gets-it-right/) This is how Miss manners proposes to deal with racist remarks or jokes: > [@](#): > > YPeople who tell racist jokes should be given the opportunity to realize the impact on civilized people — and, if possible, to redeem themselves by saying that they themselves (not their best friends) belong to the racial group that was the target of the joke. > > Stony face is, in fact, the basic correct response. There is a less harsh version, however, for relatives and others with whom you may have reason to continue dealing. That is to look puzzled: > > “I don’t get it. Oh, it’s supposed to show that they’re stupid? Well, I know lots of stupid people, but it seems to me that they’re from every sort of background. Smart people, too, for that matter …” and so on. You will soon reach a point where the joke teller cannot stand it any longer, and will be the one to break in with, “Yes, well tell me about your vacation.” If a CEO says something wrong, well these people are usually politically astute enough to know what they are saying. If they aren’t, they should be fired. But if they do make such remarks to pander to some base of voters or clients, then… I don’t know what the best response is. Calling them out on it, maybe, asking clarification, letting them hang themselves in the same way Miss Manners approach described above will do? Firing or reprimanding them just seems to make PC martyrs of them with their power base. They will play it out that way, anyway. Some may say that raising the stakes, and harshly punishing racist remarks is the best way to stamp it out, but I don’t see it really working in doing anything but pushing racism underground where it festers on. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/37 "2015-05-04T16:07:42Z")
Although no option was perfect I picked “Not fired, no disciplinary action, but should be viewed negatively” for all cases. People who are otherwise competent at their job shouldn’t lose their job for something ignorant they say or think, unless it falls outside the bounds of free speech like inciting violence. Then you’ve got a racist person with no job and a grudge. People will always have ill-informed and ignorant opinions, nothing will change that. Would you rather them just hide their opinions due to the thought police so everyone can pretend those opinions don’t exist, or would you rather have it out in the open? I think social pressure and education is the best way to deal with them, much like Maastricht suggests. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/38 "2015-05-04T17:01:02Z")
Will it impact sales? I want to sell people of all walks of life. Buy all the things, all the people! Will it impact recruiting? I want to employ people of all walks of life. Will it impact morale? A racist manager cannot manage diversity effectively. Probably. Depends. I say shit all the time, though, so I’d prefer facing minor disciplinary action than be fired for my idiotic, and/or hilariously “racially ironic” remarks. Sigh. /hilarious ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/39 "2015-05-04T17:02:42Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > People will always have ill-informed and ignorant opinions, nothing will change that. Would you rather them just hide their opinions due to the thought police so everyone can pretend those opinions don’t exist, or would you rather have it out in the open? I don’t want my other employees or my clients to have to deal with such a person. ETA: If they’re clueless enough to not know such comments are out of bounds, that’s another issue too. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150/40 "2015-05-04T18:01:44Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > Although no option was perfect I picked “Not fired, no disciplinary action, but should be viewed negatively” for all cases. > > People who are otherwise competent at their job shouldn’t lose their job for something ignorant they say or think, unless it falls outside the bounds of free speech like inciting violence. Then you’ve got a racist person with no job and a grudge. > > People will always have ill-informed and ignorant opinions, nothing will change that. Would you rather them just hide their opinions due to the thought police so everyone can pretend those opinions don’t exist, or would you rather have it out in the open? > > I think social pressure and education is the best way to deal with them, much like Maastricht suggests. Sorry, but I’m paid to work, not to educate my coworkers. And I don’t necesarily trust my coworkers with this responsibility either. I’m not going to run to management if someone regurgitates Rush Limbaugh nonsense around me. If I see provocative text on a Facebook page that I accidentally stumble upon, I’d probably just keep my mouth shut and my own business. But if a coworker is brazen enough to say “blacks are lazy little so-and-sos” in my presence while we are at work, I’m filing a complaint. And I’m not going to be real happy if management just shrugs their shoulders because FREE SPEECH MAN. There is no such thing as free speech when you are on someone else’s clock. Start your own business if you want unfettered speech all the time. I hate when businesses are quick to fire people over stupid stuff too. But workplace harmony can get fucked up real fast when there’s a known racist in the workplace. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-people-who-make-racist-remarks-be-fired/719150.md?page=3)