# Should Pete Rose be put in the MLB Hall of Fame? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243 "2015-06-23T14:25:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/41 "2015-06-23T20:11:31Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > Yeah > > He did nothing wrong > > he never bet against the Reds And why would you believe that? Because he said so? He also said he never bet as a manager or as a player, and lied about both of those. In all likelihood he’s telling the truth about betting against the Reds, but “fool me once, same on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times, I’m a Pete Rose fan”. But, put him in the Hall. Hell, if he hadn’t been betting against the Reds, he might have had even better numbers. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/42 "2015-06-23T20:41:55Z")
> [@furt](#): > > 1. PEDs threatened historical continuity, gambling threatened the game’s viability. Yeah, it sucks that Barry Bonds passed Hank Aaron, but the bottom line is that even when it was fully known how widespread juicing was, fans still came to the games. Fans still watch the NFL and we know half those guys are juiced out of their minds. In contrast, the 1919 scandal was seen, properly, as an existential threat to the pro game as a commercially-viable competitive activity. You may insist that that doesn’t make a moral difference … in which case I can only envy you your innocence. This. 1000x this. I don’t understand people who are trying to compare it to PEDs. PEDs may alter stats to a certain extent, but gambling on games while you are a manager or player threatens the entire viability of a sport. People simply aren’t going to come to games which may be fixed - I mean look at how the popularity of boxing has basically taken a nose dive. The Black Sox scandal of 1919 scared MLB completely shitless - they were deeply frightened that the league may fold due to knowledge that games were being fixed - so they acted incredibly decisively in dealing with that. Once people think something is fixed, they don’t tend to see it something worthy of their time and effort (yes, a few counter-examples like “pro wrestling” present themselves, but that’s based on things like storylines and whatnot, not the sporting itself). Anyways, I think perhaps delinking entry into the Hall of Fame from the other aspects of baseball inclusion is wise - after all Rose did do all those great things while playing. Then again, I believe the Hall is a completely joke anyways, so do what you will. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/43 "2015-06-23T20:44:01Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > He did nothing wrong > > he never bet against the Reds Think about it this way. When Rose was a manager, say he bet on tonight’s game, but he didn’t bet on tomorrow’s game (maybe tomorrow’s game is against a better pitcher). It seems to me that the incentive to wear out a great bullpen arm (who may have already pitched a few games in a row prior to tonight) to win tonight’s game may be far greater than perhaps saving that arm for future games in the week. And maybe if a position player needs a rest, you wait until tomorrow to give that day off to him rather than tonight, which you may normally have done… if you hadn’t bet to win. 162 game seasons tend to make the questions of when did you bet on your team to win more salient. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/44 "2015-06-23T20:50:01Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Yes. He should be in. His gambling is irrelevant to his _performance_ as a player. > > No one comes close to him in terms of his various records. And that should get him in. That he gambled is unfortunate but doesn’t make his hitting prowess any the less outstanding or, in fact, any the less _unique_. His accomplishments as a batter _are_ unique. So if the HOF is about the best players, how can he not be in? Players using corked bats get in, despite that being a crystal-clear rule. Rose was a good player, let him in. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/45 "2015-06-23T21:26:18Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Rose was a good player, let him in. Rose was a great player, keep him out. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/46 "2015-06-23T21:26:59Z")
As other posters have noted, you don’t have to bet against your team in order for your betting to have a detrimental effect on the games. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Even if he bet on his own team it corrupts the game, especially as manager. If as manager he bet on his own team he might overwork a pitcher to try to get the one win to make his money to the detriment of the rest of the season. Or he might pull a pitcher and wreck his confidence for future games in order to turn it over to someone he trusts more. Even as a player, he might take an unnecessary risk of injury to say dive into the stands after a ball if he has thousands on the game. > [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Let’s say I have a bet for my own team for tomorrow’s game, but not tonight’s game. Tonight, the game is on the line in the 8th inning. Am I going to waste my best relief pitchers on a game that I don’t have a bet on or am I going to put in the second best unit and save the best for tomorrow? > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Think about it this way. When Rose was a manager, say he bet on tonight’s game, but he didn’t bet on tomorrow’s game (maybe tomorrow’s game is against a better pitcher). It seems to me that the incentive to wear out a great bullpen arm (who may have already pitched a few games in a row prior to tonight) to win tonight’s game may be far greater than perhaps saving that arm for future games in the week. > > And maybe if a position player needs a rest, you wait until tomorrow to give that day off to him rather than tonight, which you may normally have done… if you hadn’t bet to win. I am also exceedingly unimpressed with the “other players did bad things too” argument. The steroid crowd, for instance, can wait a helluva long time for Hall induction as far as I’m concerned. Still, I’d like to see Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame at some point for his tremendous achievements as a player. Two problems: the thinking currently seems to be that he’d have to be reinstated without qualification, meaning that he could have unlimited contact with MLB and potential employment in the game, which I find revolting. Secondly, what other skeletons are lurking out there? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/47 "2015-06-23T21:39:30Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > Yeah > > **He did nothing wrong** > > he never bet against the Reds Really? Betting on baseball is the Number One Cardinal No-No in baseball and Rose knew it. He did fucking _everything_ wrong and he deserves to pay for it for the rest of Time. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/48 "2015-06-23T22:04:29Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Let’s say I have a bet for my own team for tomorrow’s game, but not tonight’s game. Tonight, the game is on the line in the 8th inning. Am I going to waste my best relief pitchers on a game that I don’t have a bet on or am I going to put in the second best unit and save the best for tomorrow? I guess a person’s ire towards Rose will be determined by how negatively we view such things. My personal opinion is that it doesn’t matter a whole lot if he was ultimately trying to win. Calculations like yours is done all the time. If there are no bets on it, we don’t really care that much so I’m trying to look at it from that point of view. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/49 "2015-06-23T22:21:54Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Too bad he wasn’t caught with performance enhancing drugs. He could have had a long career and eventually a HOF member, just a A Rod will be. Did A Rod used to play on a baseball team? I thought he was AL all the way. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/50 "2015-06-23T22:24:10Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I guess a person’s ire towards Rose will be determined by how negatively we view such things. My personal opinion is that it doesn’t matter a whole lot if he was ultimately trying to win. Calculations like yours is done all the time. If there are no bets on it, we don’t really care that much so I’m trying to look at it from that point of view. That’s exactly the point. In the game that he doesn’t have a bet on it, he wouldn’t be trying as hard to win. He would be holding back his best effort to save it for the game that he does have a bet on. He would be willing to sacrifice winning the game that he has no money on in order to have a better chance to win the one that he does. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/51 "2015-06-23T22:24:47Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Players using corked bats get in, despite that being a crystal-clear rule. Yeah, you’re right! This is absolutely the same thing! Here’s the rule for corked bats: > [@](#): > > A batter is out for illegal action when: > > (d) He uses or attempts to use a bat that, in the umpire’s judgment, has been altered or tampered with in such a way to improve the distance factor or cause an unusual reaction on the baseball. This includes, bats that are filled, flat surfaced, nailed, hollowed, grooved or covered with a substance such as paraffin, wax, etc. No advancement on the bases will be allowed and any out or outs made during a play shall stand. In addition to being called out, the player shall be ejected from the game and may be subject to additional penalties as determined by his League Punishment advisor. Here’s the rule for gambling: > [@](#): > > (d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared ineligible for one year. > > Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible. > > … > > (g) RULE TO BE KEPT POSTED. A printed copy of this Rule shall be kept > posted in each clubhouse. You’d better notify everyone that these rules are really the same! ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/52 "2015-06-23T22:27:17Z")
I think it’s a bit funny that they don’t care so much about cheating. I don’t run MKB, but if I did, cheating would result in a lifetime ban. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/53 "2015-06-23T22:30:15Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > Yeah > > He did nothing wrong > > he never bet against the Reds If you can show me that Rose bet exactly the same amount of money on the Reds to win every game you might convince me it was harmless. But the day he changes the amount of the bet, or the day he doesn’t bet on his own team, that’s the day the bookies are looking for. I get that Rose wanted action. He should have stuck to betting on horses. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/54 "2015-06-23T22:34:47Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > I’ll be in the minority, and say he should be in. As long as his betting didn’t include fixing games then I’d be okay with it. Even though I’m not much of a baseball fan, I think doing things that affect the outcome of a game, whether you’re shaving points or using PEDs, is much worse than simply betting. So when he used up his best players because he had money riding on the game, that was OK? Should we ask [Mario](http://bleacherreport.com/articles/242626-pete-rose-killed-mario-soto) [Soto](http://bleacherreport.com/articles/243237-pete-rose-killed-mario-sotos-career-part-ii-evidence-for-naysayers) about that? How about the nights that he didn’t lay a bet on the Reds? You don’t think that corrupted the game in any way? It tipped off the gamblers that Pete didn’t intend to win that night, which is virtually indistinguishable from throwing the game. The only rule in Major League Baseball that is posted in every locker room in every stadium, the rule that quite literally saved professional baseball, was the one he broke. I cannot for the life of me figure out why he has so many people carrying water for him. In conclusion: no. Not only no but HELL NO. Also, the ban isn’t a lifetime ban. It’s a permanent ban. The distinction is important, because there are people (even in this thread) that think he should get in only after he dies. Nope, not even then. Never. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/55 "2015-06-23T22:44:25Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > The only rule in Major League Baseball that is posted in every locker room in every stadium, the rule that quite literally saved professional baseball, was the one he broke. I cannot for the life of me figure out why he has so many people carrying water for him. This. His stats are meaningless if the game meant so little to him. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/56 "2015-06-23T22:48:22Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > So when he used up his best players because he had money riding on the game, that was OK? Should we ask [Mario](http://bleacherreport.com/articles/242626-pete-rose-killed-mario-soto) [Soto](http://bleacherreport.com/articles/243237-pete-rose-killed-mario-sotos-career-part-ii-evidence-for-naysayers) about that? How about the nights that he didn’t lay a bet on the Reds? You don’t think that corrupted the game in any way? It tipped off the gamblers that Pete didn’t intend to win that night, which is virtually indistinguishable from throwing the game. > > The only rule in Major League Baseball that is posted in every locker room in every stadium, the rule that quite literally saved professional baseball, was the one he broke. I cannot for the life of me figure out why he has so many people carrying water for him. > > In conclusion: no. Not only no but HELL NO. > > Also, the ban isn’t a lifetime ban. It’s a permanent ban. The distinction is important, because there are people (even in this thread) that think he should get in only after he dies. Nope, not even then. Never. I don’t think many are disputing he violated an important rule, we’re just debating how severe the consequences should be. I think putting him in the Hall of Fame and keeping a lifetime ban from MLB activities strikes a good balance. Reasonable minds can differ, however. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/57 "2015-06-23T23:34:14Z")
Moved to the Game Room. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/58 "2015-06-24T00:17:07Z")
I’m with **Doors.** Gambling threatens the fundamental integrity of the sport in ways that PED use, or other forms of cheating to win, simply don’t. Even if you disagree with this, the rule is very clearly posted in every clubhouse. I would also point out that, although there is no doubt that his performance on the field would ordinarily make him a no-brainer Hall of Famer, his status as the “Hit King” exists only because at the end of his career, he was managing himself and thus got to keep playing regularly for several years after he no longer deserved to. Not against the rules, but indicative of an attitude that put himself above the team. And I think it is bizarre to suggest that he should go into the HoF while other aspects of the ban remain in place. “He isn’t allowed to play, manage, coach, scout, sell peanuts, or clean the urinals in a major league ballpark…all we’re going to do for him is give him the highest honor we could possibly bestow.” Kind of like arguing that Edward Snowden should receive both a life sentence and the Congressional Medal of Honor. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/59 "2015-06-24T00:19:42Z")
There are worse guys than Pete Rose in the HoF right now. Orlando Cepeda smuggled drugs in Puerto Rico. There are dozens of hall of famers who allegedly played more games drunk than sober. Does that have a significantly less damaging effect to the integrity of the game than betting on your team? Perhaps most damning, Ty Cobb admittedly bet on games. There was evidence that he and Tris Speaker knew about and bet on fixed games. Cobb said, “There has never been a baseball game in my life that I played in that I knew was fixed.” Why would he qualify that statement with “that I played in?” And yet, I have never heard any serious discussion of removing Cobb or Speaker from HoF. [http://espn.go.com/classic/s/2001/0730/1233060.html](http://espn.go.com/classic/s/2001/0730/1233060.html) The stuff about Mario Soto was interesting. I never heard that. 19 games on 3 days rest in one season is outrageous and there’s no excuse for that. I still put Rose in the HoF. His addiction made him a terrible manager, but he was one of the best players in the history of the game and that’s what the HoF is for. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/60 "2015-06-24T01:08:15Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > So when he used up his best players because he had money riding on the game, that was OK? Should we ask [Mario](http://bleacherreport.com/articles/242626-pete-rose-killed-mario-soto) [Soto](http://bleacherreport.com/articles/243237-pete-rose-killed-mario-sotos-career-part-ii-evidence-for-naysayers) about that? How about the nights that he didn’t lay a bet on the Reds? You don’t think that corrupted the game in any way? It tipped off the gamblers that Pete didn’t intend to win that night, which is virtually indistinguishable from throwing the game. > > The only rule in Major League Baseball that is posted in every locker room in every stadium, the rule that quite literally saved professional baseball, was the one he broke. I cannot for the life of me figure out why he has so many people carrying water for him. > > In conclusion: no. Not only no but HELL NO. > > Also, the ban isn’t a lifetime ban. It’s a permanent ban. The distinction is important, because there are people (even in this thread) that think he should get in only after he dies. Nope, not even then. Never. I remember Rose from the latter part of his playing career forward. I was never a Reds fan, and don’t have any particular attachment to him as a player, manager, or person. From what I know about him, it seems that the guy is pretty much a dick. He’s also a 17-time all-star, 3-time batting champion, and all-time leader in hits. Lots of ballplayers throughout history have been dicks; lots of players have broken lots of rules. It’s not a “Hall of Goodness”, it’s a"Hall of Fame", and Pete Rose belongs in it. So should Joe Jackson, and any number of players from the ‘PED Era’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243.md?page=4)