# Should Pete Rose be put in the MLB Hall of Fame? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243 "2015-06-23T14:25:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/61 "2015-06-24T01:31:36Z")
**Barkis** , I think the argument has been pretty convincingly made that yes, betting on baseball is uniquely harmful in ways that the other transgressions you mention are not. You may feel that drunkenness and drug smuggling are worse moral failings than gambling, but the point is not that Pete Rose did morally bad things, but that he\* broke the rules of baseball.\* AFAIK, baseball does not have rules against playing drunk or smuggling drugs (and Cepeda was retired when he did that, anyway; it probably did delay his HoF induction by several years). I am quite sure that if such rules do exist, they leave more leeway to the Commissioner than the rule against gambling, which flatly states “shall be declared permanently ineligible”. The Ty Cobb stuff is interesting, but you will note that the article you linked to says that the rule Rose was banned for breaking was instituted AFTER the Cobb scandal, so you can’t claim that Rose is being treated unfairly based on the relatively lenient treatment afforded Cobb. In any case, I can’t imagine any scenario in which I would advocate throwing anyone OUT of the Hall of Fame. The damage that would be done to the institution by creating that precedent, so that fans would fear that their favorite player might be de-inducted decades after the fact, would far outweigh the damage done by letting in some reprobates. I oppose putting Rose in the Hall of Fame, but if he should ever be inducted, that will end the argument forever as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/62 "2015-06-24T01:39:44Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > I remember Rose from the latter part of his playing career forward. I was never a Reds fan, and don’t have any particular attachment to him as a player, manager, or person. From what I know about him, it seems that the guy is pretty much a dick. > > He’s also a 17-time all-star, 3-time batting champion, and all-time leader in hits. Lots of ballplayers throughout history have been dicks; lots of players have broken lots of rules. > > It’s not a “Hall of Goodness”, it’s a"Hall of Fame", and Pete Rose belongs in it. > > So should Joe Jackson, and any number of players from the ‘PED Era’. Yes, “lots of players have broken lots of rules”, but since 1926, only one player has been caught breaking, as\*\* Airman\*\* said, **the only rule in Major League Baseball that is posted in every locker room in every stadium**. I’m just going to leave a Bill James quote here: “My own opinion is that the people who want to put Joe Jackson in the Hall of Fame are baseball’s answer to the women who show up at murder trials wanting to marry the cute murderer”. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/63 "2015-06-24T01:41:37Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > The biggest argument I’ve heard is that the number of players that have violated the performance enhancing drug (PED’s) use policy that are eligible for consideration into the HOF. I don’t understand that sentence. The argument for Rose’s reinstatement is PEDs? Huh? > [@](#): > > I’m not sure you can find stats to support this, but I suspect that a large portion of the support for Rose’s reinstatement comes from a younger generation that’s used to getting participation ribbons/trophies for all. Not only do I not think you could find stats for that, I don’t think you could even find anecdotal evidence for that. Every single person I’ve heard that has vociferously argued in favor of Rose’s reinstatement has been someone who was alive to watch and remember Rose playing baseball in the 70s and 80s. I’d think anyone from the “Everyone gets a ribbon” era would just respond with either “who the fuck is Pete Rose?” or “who the fuck cares?” ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/64 "2015-06-24T01:45:49Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > And I think it is bizarre to suggest that he should go into the HoF while other aspects of the ban remain in place. “He isn’t allowed to play, manage, coach, scout, sell peanuts, or clean the urinals in a major league ballpark…all we’re going to do for him is give him the highest honor we could possibly bestow.” Kind of like arguing that Edward Snowden should receive both a life sentence and the Congressional Medal of Honor. The only difference here that I want to point out (even though I agree with you - Rose should remain outside of both Major League Baseball and the Hall of Fame), is that MLB does not operate the Baseball Hall of Fame. It is a separate organization. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/65 "2015-06-24T03:09:58Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > The stuff about Mario Soto was interesting. I never heard that. 19 games on 3 days rest in one season is outrageous and there’s no excuse for that. I still put Rose in the HoF. His addiction made him a terrible manager, but he was one of the best players in the history of the game and that’s what the HoF is for. This isn’t about his record as a player. Had he never managed the Reds he’d already be in. But he used his status as a Major League Baseball manager to influence games that he had money on to the detriment of his team. Further, given the games he didn’t lay money on, who’s to say that the bookies didn’t threaten to kneecap him unless he came through for them? We can’t prove that it happened that way, but because the possibility exists we have to assume that every decision he made as a manager was tainted, and thus every game he didn’t bet on is questionable. Hell, they all were, because he used up his best players in ways he wouldn’t have while chasing action. Players who used PEDs clearly influenced the game. But when it came down to it, they still had to hit the ball. They still had to pitch, catch, and field. No matter how much dope they took they were still making outs around 2 of 3 times they hit the ball. Pete Rose had the ability to manipulate the lineup and make game-changing decisions, 100% of the time. The best team in the world can be sabotaged by a bad manager. Pete was worse than bad- his decisions were intentionally damaging. There’s no comparison. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/66 "2015-06-24T03:22:07Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > There are worse guys than Pete Rose in the HoF right now. Orlando Cepeda smuggled drugs in Puerto Rico. There are dozens of hall of famers who So what? Pete Rose isn’t banned from baseball for being a bad person. He’s banned for being a thrat to the industry, as well he should be. > [@](#): > > Perhaps most damning, Ty Cobb admittedly bet on games. There was evidence that he and Tris Speaker… The evidence against Pete Rose is, without exaggeration, one thousand times greater. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/67 "2015-06-24T04:49:30Z")
Let Pete in. His years as a player earned him that right. Yeah, he’s an egotistical ass with a gambling problem. He’s been punished. Permanent ban from baseball that so far has lasted over twenty-five years. Wiping out a promising second career as a manager. He deserves the ban. None of that changes the fact that he was an incredible hitter. For that alone, he’s a HOF. Lets not pretend the HOF is a bunch of chior boys. It’s made up of men that played hard, drank hard, F’d hard and basically never grew up. A lot gambled and just never got caught. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/68 "2015-06-24T05:06:05Z")
The “purity of baseball” is a fucking joke. When the old farts that have a vote die off, Rose will be in. A’course, he might be dead then too. Cest la vie. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/69 "2015-06-24T05:17:21Z")
Agreed. Baseball has never been any beacon of shining light. That became clear in the 1919 World Series. Babe Ruth shortened his career considerably with his love for the night life and drink. Mickey Mantle was the same. Loved the night life and the booze. Banning the worst offenders is the best recourse. Get them out of the game. I totally support Rose’s banning. But what they accomplished over a long career before they get banned should be looked at separately. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/70 "2015-06-24T06:06:46Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Agreed. Baseball has never been any beacon of shining light. > > That became clear in the 1919 World Series. Babe Ruth shortened his career considerably with his love for the night life and drink. Mickey Mantle was the same. Loved the night life and the booze. > > Banning the worst offenders is the best recourse. Get them out of the game. I totally support Rose’s banning. > > But what they accomplished over a long career before they get banned should be looked at separately. You know what? Screw it. The Hall should rescind the rule that people on the permanently ineligible list cannot be considered for the Hall. That’s what you want, they should give you what you want. He’ll still never get in. Never. Ever. But at least we’ll have relief from the Rose knob polishers who don’t care that he did the one thing that can destroy the game they claim to care about so much. In fact, let’s make gambling legal. Anything goes. The Veterans Committee should put Hal Chase in the Hall for his contributions to the game. If he doesn’t get in Rose shouldn’t either. Hal Chase for the Hall 2016! ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/71 "2015-06-24T08:15:22Z")
I understand the need to protect sports from gambling. They issue the most punitive punishment possible, lifetime ban. Pretty much a death sentence for a professional athlete. Making them unemployable in their sport, sports broadcasting (they can’t get in the venues except for public seating), and their value as a commercial spokesman is zero. It’s a stiff penalty meant to put the fear of God into any athlete that even thinks about gambling. It works quite well too. Except for idiots like Pete Rose. He got what he deserved. Do we have to dig him up and execute him all over again? Let the guy’s baseball achievements stand on their own merits. He’s still banned from the sport and thoroughly humiliated. Attending a short HOF ceremony won’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/72 "2015-06-24T12:13:45Z")
Here’s something that has confused or amused me for ages: When Pete Rose was first accused of betting on baseball, he proclaimed that he was 100% innocent, and that John Dowd had a vendetta against him. He fought tooth and nail against his banishment. He worked the media, he worked his devoted fans, and did his dmndest to get the Commissioner’s ruling overturned. Pete’s fans (including Bill James) were solidly in his corner, and insisted Pete was innocent and that there was no credible evidence against him. Well, okay. So far, that’s fine. If you believe in your hero, and think he’s been treated unfairly, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with defending him. BUT… when Pete finally admitted that he HAD, in fact, bet on basebal… wouldn’t you think Pete’s defenders would be angry at HIM??? Wouldn’t you think his defenders would feel BETRAYED? Wouldn’t you think they’d turn their backs on Rose, saying, “Damn it, we BELIEVED in you, and you LIED to us, straigh-faced, for 20 years! Go to Hell, Pete!”" But noooooooo!!! Pete’s defenders simply changed their tune. Now, instead of saying “Pete was a lying sack of bleep, and we were idiots to believe him,” they’re saying… 1. “Yeah, well, what about steroids???” 2. “Yeah, well, Ty Cobb was a racist!!!” 3. “Yeah, well, Hank Aron used greenies!!!” 4. “Yeah, well, he only bet on the Reds to WIN!!!” \* 5. Yeah, well, what’s so bad about gambling???" Basically, these people don’t CARE that Pete was and is lying scum. He’s THEIR scum, and nothing he does will ever shake their pathetic love for him. - Who SAYS he only bet on the Reds to win??? You have only Pete’s word for that, and we KNOW what his word is worth. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/73 "2015-06-24T13:14:44Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > In the game that he doesn’t have a bet on it, he wouldn’t be trying as hard to win. From what I’ve heard about Rose, this isn’t part of his nature. For me, the Hall of Fame should be a museum, showcasing the history of baseball, good and bad. If a guy was a great player but did something bad, he should be in the Hall, and his bad acts should be recorded along with his great play. I’d also prefer that the Hall not be tied to the decisions of the Commissioner regarding who may and who may not be employed in the league. These are two completely separate issues. Pressure to admit Rose to the Hall should not equate to pressure on the Commissioner to reinstate Rose as an eligible employee. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/74 "2015-06-24T13:27:19Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Pete’s fans (including Bill James) were solidly in his corner, and insisted Pete was innocent and that there was no credible evidence against him. Well, okay. So far, that’s fine. If you believe in your hero, and think he’s been treated unfairly, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with defending him. > > BUT… when Pete finally admitted that he HAD, in fact, bet on basebal… wouldn’t you think Pete’s defenders would be angry at HIM??? Wouldn’t you think his defenders would feel BETRAYED? Wouldn’t you think they’d turn their backs on Rose, saying, “Damn it, we BELIEVED in you, and you LIED to us, straigh-faced, for 20 years! Go to Hell, Pete!”" > > But noooooooo!!! Pete’s defenders simply changed their tune. Now, instead of saying “Pete was a lying sack of bleep, and we were idiots to believe him,” they’re saying… > > 1. “Yeah, well, what about steroids???” > > 2. “Yeah, well, Ty Cobb was a racist!!!” > > 3. “Yeah, well, Hank Aron used greenies!!!” > > 4. “Yeah, well, he only bet on the Reds to WIN!!!” \* > > 5. Yeah, well, what’s so bad about gambling???" > Basically, these people don’t CARE that Pete was and is lying scum. He’s THEIR scum, and nothing he does will ever shake their pathetic love for him. Good point. Compare and contrast to Lance Armstrong. When he finally admitted to PED use, people who had defended him to their last breath couldn’t get away from him fast enough. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/75 "2015-06-24T14:09:19Z")
[QUOTE=cheesesteak] From what I’ve heard about Rose, this isn’t part of his nature. [/QUOTE] Completely irrelevant, unfortunately. Again, the lifetime ban is not because he is a bad person. It’s because he put himself in a position of a gross conflict of interest, something that will get you thrown out of ANY job. I’m an ISO 9001 auditor. If I started a side business consulting to the clients I audit, I’d be fired, immediately, and would not get work with any other ISO 9001 registrar if they knew about it. I am a good person, and hell, it might even be the case that I would never allow the consulting work to affect my judgment as an auditor. _But you couldn’t possibly know for sure_, because I’d be in a gross conflict of interest. So I could not possibly be allowed to continue doing to job. It cannot be any other way. I knew a guy once who was VP finance of a big company I worked for. Great guy, really. Gave a few contracts to his son’s company without declaring the conflict of interest. He was walked out the door the moment it was discovered. Nice guy, but, so sorry, we can’t trust you now. Had he, say, had a drinking problem, well, that could have been worked out. But not that; he was in a position of trust and he can’t be trusted, so he can’t be kept on the payroll. Yeah, Pete Rose was super competitive and he was Charlie Hustle. He won three World Series, an MVP Award, 4,256 hits, batting titles, Gold Gloves blah blah blah. He was a great player. But he cannot be allowed back into the sport, ever, and the HoF’s rules say that means he can’t be elected. His history is there; his name is in many places in the HoF. I’ve seen it. As to whether the rule should be changed to allow him in even while on the permamently ineligible list, I don’t think that is as important as keeping him out of MLB. If the Hall wants to shrug its shoulders, lift the rule and let the appropriate committee vbote him in, so be it. Personally I find the man repulsive and don’t wish him that honor or joy, but a plaque’s just a plaque. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/76 "2015-06-24T14:16:58Z")
No. Not now. Not ever. And I don’t care a whit about the consistency. Lied. Cheated. Gambled. Denied, denied, denied. Lied for some few years, and now even more lies are being revealed. No. And I agree people need to let it go already. It’s been decided. There is no good reason for a reversal that I can see. No then, no now, no in future. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/77 "2015-06-24T14:31:24Z")
My $.02: Yes, he belongs in the HoF. Ty Cobb is in, and Pete Rose broke his record for career hits. And you really (collectively, including the BBWAA) can’t compare their off-field antics (I’m including Rose’s betting on games he was playing). You can see [here](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-knife-in-ty-cobbs-back-65618032/?no-ist) a list of Cobb’s apocryphal misdeeds. It seems to me that the things that Cobb did were worse than Rose’s transgressions. Yeah, Rose bet on baseball. Cobb allegedly confessed to murdering a man. And what do people say to kids who go through the HoF? Kid: Mister, who broke Ty Cobb’s all-time hits record? Tour guide: We can’t tell you. If the ban is upheld, then vote him in posthumously. But he’s 74 years old. His effective date has passed. I really think he’s going to die in the next few years. Give him a chance to have a little dignity before he goes. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/78 "2015-06-24T14:36:56Z")
I was a Pete Rose fan from the age of 6. He should not be let in. Ty Cobb was a terrible person. That’s not parallel to what Pete Rose did. Rose’s transgressions are against baseball itself. Baseball should not let him in before it lets Shoeless Joe in. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/79 "2015-06-24T14:39:32Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > Give him a chance to have a little dignity before he goes. Whether Pete Rose lives or foes with dignity is up to Pete Rose. At every turn he has chosen the undignified route, whether it’s hanging out with drug dealers, betting on baseball, auctioning his memorabilia. Or appearing on a reality show. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/80 "2015-06-24T14:43:34Z")
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