# Should Pete Rose be put in the MLB Hall of Fame? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243 "2015-06-23T14:25:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/121 "2015-06-29T14:31:21Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > The same alcove as Barry Bonds, yes. They can call it the Ty Cobb Alcove. Will all the amphetamine users be in there too? ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/122 "2015-06-29T17:30:56Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Do you not understand that the days he DIDN’T lay money on his team he wasn’t managing to win? Or, worse, the bookies had him by the balls and told him that they would kneecap him unless he lost? There is enough history of that sort of thing that it cannot be discounted. > > He was an active member of a Major League Baseball team, arguably the most important member of that team as his decisions directly impacted the game, and so he was banned. What he did as a player is totally, completely, and utterly irrelevant. > > Of course, that’s been said (and ignored) multiple times in this thread, so I don’t expect reality to make a dent now. Settle down cowboy. That Rose would short other games to have an optimal chance to win a future game, or ruin a chance to win future games by recklessly trying to win a game he _did_ bet on (overusing the bullpen, for example) is an aspect that admittedly I did not consider and I appreciate **RickJay** for patiently laying it out. When I said Rose should be in the HoF as long as he didn’t “bet against his own team,” I really should have said “do anything to compromise the integrity of the game,” [like shorting games for future potential]. Now that I see the potential for that, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/123 "2015-06-29T18:11:53Z")
It’s been said before, even up-thread… but damn. I don’t see how you can have any respect at all for the game, and consider Rose’s blatant and repeated breaking of the most fundamental “moral” rule of the game, instituted because the transgression almost destroyed the sport… forgivable. I don’t have much more respect for the juicers, etc., but at least their aim was to be a better athlete, a better player (yes, for almost entirely personal gain, but still). Rose was kicking at the public pillars of the game, knew the risk in both public perception and personal career affect… and did it and did it and did it anyway. A long time back, after he backslid into drugs and failure yet again, I read a sports column that began, “God damn you, Daryl Eugene Strawberry.” It was a searing indictment of a man who had been given, and used up far too many chances and too much good will. I don’t care how good a player he was. Just as men of the cloth have the least leeway in being morally judged, he made his choice, and had every chance to avoid it and stop repeat offenses. God damn Peter Edward Rose, and all those who think he’s still worthy of visiting Cooperstown, much less being enshrined there. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/124 "2015-06-29T18:13:16Z")
And yet Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker are still in. Imagine that. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/125 "2015-06-29T19:27:21Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > In general, number of hits is an overrated stat, as it’s generally achieved by a free-swinging approach, which results in a low OBP. If you also lack power - as Rose did - and have not much speed - as Rose also did - then there’s a lot less to that stat than meets the eye. (Rose had a lifetime OPS of .784 with not much in the way of speed. Compare to Ricky Henderson with .820 and tremendous speed.) I hear you, his hit record is largely due to his career longevity. I understand what you mean about lack of speed and OPS (however, Ichiro’s career OPS is .764 and I think he’s a sure-fire first-ballot HOFer), but being slow doesn’t help you rack up hits. It doesn’t really matter. Pete Rose had a HoF playing career and he did it without cheating. Never let him play or manage or hold any kind of position in MLB again. That’s more than understandable and I’m fine with that. But he has the creds to be in the HoF. And yes, I think Joe Jackson belongs in the HoF, too. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/126 "2015-06-29T19:37:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And yet Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker are still in. Imagine that. Has anyone ever been removed? Quite a few guys were rotten bastards outside of the game, but save for Cobb their reputations were white-washed when I was growing up. I really can’t decide if the Hall should consider their lives off the field. With the exception of maybe Rabbit Maranville all those guys did show impressive stats over their career. Also, before Pete Rose gets in Joe Jackson should be instated. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/127 "2015-06-29T20:00:51Z")
I mentioned those two because they actually did conspire to fix a game, as managers. Baseball whitewashed it, though. HOF discussions are thoroughly saturated with hypocrisy even on their best days, and I have little patience with the selective moralizing we see from so many. Blame the Hall’s founders for that, though, by choosing to make intangible criteria the main ones. Football and the others focus on athletic accomplishment almost solely, and don’t go through all this anguish. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/128 "2015-06-30T00:40:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I mentioned those two because they actually did conspire to fix a game, as managers. Baseball whitewashed it, though. [The evidence wasn’t even as much as the Wells Report had on Brady.](http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/analysisbburgess05.html) But hey, if it’s definitive enough for you… ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/129 "2015-06-30T00:43:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Football and the others focus on athletic accomplishment almost solely, and don’t go through all this anguish. Well then, Brady will still get in the Hall of Fame, right? So what’s your problem? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/130 "2015-06-30T02:30:22Z")
At this point does it even matter if Rose gets in? Almost 100 years on and nobody has forgotten Joe Jackson. All those lists are still going to have Pete Roses’ name and 4256 hits. So he doesn’t get a plaque, as long as there is baseball, people will discuss him and that is a form of immorality that is pretty similar to being in the HOF. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/131 "2015-06-30T02:55:44Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > So he doesn’t get a plaque, as long as there is baseball, people will discuss him and that is a form of immorality that is pretty similar to being in the HOF. That Freudian slip/typo was quite apt. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/132 "2015-06-30T04:00:59Z")
Well, as was pointed out, Rose is well-represented in Cooperstown for his achievements on the field. For that matter, I don’t think there’s anything in the exhibits that say anything about the Pete Rose gambling scandal the way there’s an exhibit about the Black Sox. (I’ve only been to the HoF once and didn’t closely look at every exhibit, so I may have missed something. Apologies if I’m wrong.) While I think he should probably have a plaque as well, there have been enough terrible decisions by the BBWAA keeping players out that I can’t muster up too much outrage about Rose not being in there. If it helps at all to understand where I’m coming from, I thought the guy branding the Bonds ball before donating it to Cooperstown was stupid as well. I consider myself a fan of the game with a pretty good knowledge of baseball history and there are still a lot of plaques of people I’ve barely or never heard of, especially in the early years, and even if you discount the executives and umpires. To the Hall of Fame’s credit, their exhibits are pretty good at not romanticizing the history of the game. And let’s face it, the history of baseball has been romanticized for over a hundred years, ever since the Mills Commission accepted Graves’ claptrap about Abner Doubleday. I was actually surprised at how small the museum is, but they’ve got a good history by decade and what I thought were fair exhibits about the color barrier, the Negro Leagues, the history and problems faced by Hispanic players from various countries (including also being banned by the color barrier) and other foreign players, and so on. My take on it is that you can recognize and even celebrate the achievements of someone without putting him in the Hall of Fame Gallery. Anyway, if you’ve never been to Cooperstown, it’s worth a trip, although I’d try to go in the off-season. Upstate New York can be dreadful in the winter, and some of the charm of the town is lost due to the seasonal closings and outright cold and snow, but it’s a heck of a lot less crowded. There are some great things to do in the Cooperstown area as well, including a couple good breweries and some wineries and some other fine museums and other things to do in that section of upstate. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/133 "2015-06-30T13:10:20Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Well then, Brady will still get in the Hall of Fame, right? So what’s your problem? See above comments about hypocrisy and selective moralization. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/134 "2015-12-14T21:17:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Pete Rose remains banned for life from Major League Baseball. > > Commissioner Rob Manfred announced Monday that he had rejected Rose’s plea for reinstatement, citing his continued gambling and evidence that he bet on games when he was playing for the Cincinnati Reds. > > Manfred said in a letter sent to Rose and made public that baseball’s hits king hasn’t been completely honest about his gambling. The commissioner also noted that Rose continues to bet on baseball legally, even though his gambling got him into trouble, making it an “unacceptable risk” to let him back in the game. > **[Manfred won't lift Rose's lifetime ban from MLB](https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/14365554/pete-rose-remains-banned-major-league-baseball-per-commissioner-rob-manfred-decision)** > > MLB commissioner Rob Manfred contacted Pete Rose on Monday to inform the career hits leader that his permanent ban would stay in place. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/135 "2015-12-14T21:55:25Z")
Oh well, here we go again. I’m inclined to have him put in the HOF just to put an end to it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/136 "2015-12-14T22:16:08Z")
… what does it matter if he gambles _now_? It’s not like anyone is going to hire him for a meaningful job. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/137 "2015-12-15T07:27:53Z")
As a Phillies fan, I love Pete and will forever remember the role he played in us winning the 1980 World Series. As for a reinstatement, and the Hall of Fame, he made his own bed. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/138 "2015-12-15T14:25:48Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > As a Phillies fan, I love Pete and will forever remember the role he played in us winning the 1980 World Series. > > As for a reinstatement, and the Hall of Fame, he made his own bed. As a fellow Phillies fan I just feel sorry for both of us. At least the Cubs are lovable losers. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/139 "2015-12-15T20:50:01Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Oh well, here we go again. I’m inclined to have him put in the HOF just to put an end to it. Maybe MLB could inaugurate a Hall of Infamy. Pete Rose could be enshrined there, along with the Black Sox. They could put it in Elizabeth, NJ. (“Is this hell?” “No, this is northern New Jersey, but I understand your confusion.”) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243/140 "2015-12-15T20:59:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > … what does it matter if he gambles _now_? It’s not like anyone is going to hire him for a meaningful job. I had the same thought. Rose has the same right to gamble on sports as any other fan. He’s not connected to baseball anymore. Hasn’t been for over 25 years. Put him in the HOF and continue the ban on Rose ever working in baseball again. Thats the best outcome. imho [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-rose-be-put-in-the-mlb-hall-of-fame/723243.md?page=8)