# Should Pete Rose's lifetime ban from baseball be lifted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2002, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011 "2002-12-11T15:51:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/41 "2002-12-11T20:44:29Z")
Don’t get me wrong **astorian** , I agree with you that Rose is guilty. As I said earlier in the thread, I am a hardliner on this issue and disagree with Bill James on that point. But, even he (who would like to see Rose exonerated) thinks that putting him in the HoF while being banned is ludicrous. As to your policeman analogy – I say fine. If he earned MVPs, Gold gloves, etc. then he should keep them. But you wouldn’t give that cop a lifetime acheivement award in the end, would you? Well, the HoF is that “lifetime acheivment” award. The same applies with Rose. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/42 "2002-12-11T21:25:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Oblong \* > \*\*Hey Zev, don’t forget, McClain suddenly “hurt his thumb”, I think it was during the 72 playoffs, by “falling off the couch”. Rumor around here is that he didn’t pay a debt. I think he cavorted with the Giacalone bunch, who were probably involved in Hoffa’s disappearance. > . \*\* I know Denny, and it was his toe that got hurt. He doesnt say he fell off the couch, his story is that he tripped on it. Denny was involved in a lot of wild and crazy things and lifestyle, a lot like Babe Ruth was. Denny had lots and lots of friends, some shady. I have no reason to think that the mafia did not stomp on his toe. Denny is extremely likable and charming, and funny. His antics off the field were more interesting than his playing. The fact is, that Denny was the only pitcher to win 30 games in the last 60 years. Someone also told me he completed more games in one season than some entire teams do today. Just because Ruth, Rose, Cobb, and McClain had lifestyles that were not like the local preacher, does not change how good of players they were, and you will not change what they accomplished in baseball, just because you wont let them in of the Hall of FAme. You are not fooling us. The rest of us know how great they were, whether you have them in the Hall of Fame, or not. ---
**Author:** ![Oblong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c0e974/32.png) [@Oblong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oblong)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/43 "2002-12-11T21:46:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Just because Ruth, Rose, Cobb, and McClain had lifestyles that were not like the local preacher, does not change how good of players they were, and you will not change what they accomplished in baseball, just because you wont let them in of the Hall of FAme. > > You are not fooling us. The rest of us know how great they were, whether you have them in the Hall of Fame, or not. I never made that claim. I was throwing out an anecdote that I thought he may find interesting. So I got the thumg and toe mixed up. Point is, he got hurt and there are rumors that it wasn’t an accident. I’m from Detroit. I know all about Denny’s accomplisments and how likable he was. He had a great radio show. His TV shows with Eli Zaret and Ron Cameron were great fun to watch. I also know about his prison stints and the fact that he stole people’s pensions. That’s why he’s in prison now. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/44 "2002-12-11T21:47:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*The fact is, that Denny was the only pitcher to win 30 games in the last 60 years. Someone also told me he completed more games in one season than some entire teams do today. \*\* Because the nature of the game has changed since 1968. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Just because Ruth, Rose, Cobb, and McClain had lifestyles that were not like the local preacher, does not change how good of players they were, and you will not change what they accomplished in baseball, just because you wont let them in of the Hall of FAme. \*\* No one is disputing this. No one here is denigrating Rose’s playing ability. But in order to get into the Hall, you don’t have to have a lifestyle that would please the local pastor. You do, however, have to be eligible to play major league baseball. Rose is not. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Banger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@Banger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banger)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/45 "2002-12-11T21:57:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*I dont know anything about Michael Jordan, other than he was supposed to be a good basketball player. But if we find out that Michaeal Jordan has gambled, then he should never ever be allowed in the Basketball Hall of fame, or ever to be allowed to be connected or associatiated with anything connected with basketball the rest of his life. Makes sense to me. Ban them all, or keep them all. what is so hard about that? \*\* As far as I know, Jordan never gambled on basketball games. However, he did enjoy playing high stakes rounds of golf. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/46 "2002-12-11T22:58:51Z")
Michael Jordan reportedly has also gambled a lot of money on blackjack and poker in casinos in Atlantic City. In and of itself, this is not illegal or against NBA rules. ---
**Author:** ![Lorenzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4da419/32.png) [@Lorenzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lorenzo)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/47 "2002-12-11T23:28:03Z")
I don’t see how you can reinstate Pete Rose AND keep baseball’s no-gambling rules. Allowing gambling in baseball would cause a lot more damage to the sport than would be gained by reinstating Peter E Rose. ---
**Author:** ![Rue\_DeDay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/41988e/32.png) [@Rue\_DeDay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rue_DeDay)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/48 "2002-12-12T00:28:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Atreyu \* > \*\*Here’s what I would if I were commissioner: > > 1. Reinstate Pete Rose’s eligibility for the Hall of Fame. His accomplishments as a _player_ should be acknolwedged. > > 2. Maintain the ban on having any kind of professional employment in major league baseball > > The reinstatement of his eligibility would be conditional to his coming clean about what he did. \*\* Yeah, what she said. I’ve actually felt this way for a long time. As much as I don’t like Pete, he deserves the HoF. The thread has moved beyond this point, but I came to it late and just wanted to say "Yeah, what **Atreyu** said. -Rue. ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/49 "2002-12-12T01:31:11Z")
I say that the Rose ban should be lifted. He has served long enough. What’s it been?..13.5 years? I don’t think that lifting the ban on Rose poses any real danger to the game. I don’t believe that if the ban is listed that others that are currently in the game will see it as a green light to start gambling. They could see it only as for what it was, 13.5 years of a man’s livelyhood taken from him as punishment. Is the 13.5 years so much more light of a sentance than “lifetime” that others will decide to take the risk?..nah…no way. Don’t try to give me that argument. And don’t compare Jackson and Rose. Jackson accepted payola in return for a predetermined outcome of a series. Rose is not accused of doing anything close to that. Pete should be let back in. Baseball has much to gain from this. ---
**Author:** ![Oblong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c0e974/32.png) [@Oblong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oblong)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/50 "2002-12-12T02:42:19Z")
What’s the point of having a lifetime ban if it isn’t lifetime? Forgiveness requires repentence and Pete hasn’t come close to doing that. As for his livelyhood, Pete’s made more off this than he would if the charges never came about. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/51 "2002-12-12T03:53:44Z")
First of all, let’s clear something up. Atreyu says: > [@](#): > > Here’s what I would if I were commissioner: > > 1. Reinstate Pete Rose’s eligibility for the Hall of Fame. The commissioner can’t do that. **The Hall of Fame is a totally separate organization from Major League Baseball.** It is a private trust. MLB doesn’t control it in ANY WAY. It was the Hall of Fame’s decision to specifically prohibit suspended players from being elected, a decision they made right after Rose was suspended. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cuauhtemoc \* > \*\*Thank you. How many chances did Strawberry get? \*\* Strawberry never bet on major league baseball, so who cares? That has nothing to do with it. I think ballplayers on drugs should get lots of chances. I don’t see a problem with that. I think player who gamble on their team’s games should never get another chance. A major league ballplayer betting on baseball is MUCH worse, in terms of his association with baseball, than doing drugs. Infinitely worse. This has nothing to do with “moral rectitude,” and if you think it does, you simply do not understand the issue. This has nothing to do with being a bad person. Ty Cobb was a bad person, so what? Cap Anson was a bad person. Pete Rose wasn’t banned from baseball because he was a bad person. Baseball has never suggested they’re banning Rose because gambling is immoral, or bad, or evil. He’s banned because gambling on baseball is a critical conflict of interest for a baseball player (or manager.) It has nothing to do with it being BAD. Look, it’s like this in ANY industry. If I were to make a purchasing decision at my job that enriched my wife or my kids, I would be fired. There would be no warning, there would be no question, there would be no muss and no fuss; they’d give me thirty minutes to clear my desk, hand me the severance pay, and throw me out. The fact that I’m terrific at my job would not be considered; I would be canned so fast you wouldn’t see me go by. We had a respected vice president do this very thing; it was found out on a Tuesday and he was gone Wednesday morning. Everyone liked him, but a conflict of interest is intolerable. That’s what this is. It’s NOT a moral issue. It has never been a moral issue. Pretending it is a moral issue is completely, totally missing the entire point. Baseball is not making a moral statement of any kind. It’s simply an issue of conflict of interest - a very, very serious conflict of interest, one that nearly destroyed major league baseball before and could again. Then Susanann says: > [@](#): > > If you ban gamblers from baseball, then you have to ban Babe Ruth, and Ty Cobb, both of whom were known to everyone to be gamblers, and they even gambled on baseball. > > Either let in Pete Rose, or kick out Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb for sure, and any other player that we find out gambled. The last 30 game winner Denny McClain should not be in it either, since he too gambled. Well, first of all, Denny McLain isn’t in the Hall of Fame, and shouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame because he wasn’t a good enough player to be in the Hall of Fame. Even if he wasn’t a felon, he wasn’t great enough. One great year isn’t such a big deal; are you going to put Willie Hernandez and Kevin Mitchell in the Hall? Putting McLain in the Hall of Fame would be like putting Jack McDowell in the Hall of Fame. Does anyone think Jack McDowell is a Hall of Famer? Secondly, there’s no real evidence Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb bet on major league baseball. The rule is very, very clear; if you play major league baseball, you can’t bet on baseball. What’s so hard to understand about that? The rule makes perfect sense. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/52 "2002-12-12T05:07:43Z")
The rules is the rules. If we ever want to let him into the Hall, we can wait until he is dead and almost-forgotten. He is a sleeze. ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/53 "2002-12-12T06:50:15Z")
Oblong, a lifetime ban isn’t lifetime. Shoeless Joe Jackson is dead, and he’s still ineligible. As for Pete, I agree with the player (whose name escapes me) that said this: “The Hall of Fame is for baseball. Heaven is for good guys.” ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/54 "2002-12-12T07:06:33Z")
Pete Rose was not given a “lifetime ban.” He was declared “permanently ineligible”. Of course if you change the words to fit your own definition of the truth, then you can believe anything. ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/55 "2002-12-12T12:22:21Z")
Don’t give me the conflict of interest argument. Baseball isn’t really all that concerned with conflict of interest. Take Bud Selig for example… Pete could have been confronted and told to stop, or even suspended for a season or two. That situation could have been handled much differently and the COB had the discretion to do as he felt was appropriate. He didn’t like Rose, and so he went after him and hit Pete with the biggest stick he had. …screwed Pete in the press conference too… ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/56 "2002-12-12T12:29:03Z")
…and furthermore… The majority of fans want Pete back, the corporate sponsors want Pete back, and Pete wants to come back. It will happen folks. You hardliners won’t much like it, but it will happen. Parole Pete. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/57 "2002-12-12T13:09:28Z")
He was banned for betting on baseball, no? Has the fact that he bet on baseball changed since the ban was imposed? And corporate sponsors have _what_, again, to do with the HoF? Corporate sponsors want whatever will make them the most money fastest and relatively safe. Pete’s wanted to come back since he was banned. Duhr. Pete Rose bet on baseball. The penalty for what he did is lifetime banning. Unless some credible evidence comes forth to suggest that he did _not_ bet on baseball to the extent previously shown, there’s no reason whatsoever to allow him back. ---
**Author:** ![Oblong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/c0e974/32.png) [@Oblong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oblong)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/58 "2002-12-12T13:16:27Z")
That “COB”, I assume you mean Giamatti, went after Pete because there was strong evidence that he broke a cardinal rule. Again, what’s the point of having rules if you won’t enforce them? Pete’s attitude is the one that’s been disgraceful. If he had come clean and admitted he had a problem, he’d have probably been let back in. The majority of fans probably didn’t want Jackie Robinson to play either. **"I didn’t do anything wrong and I promise not to do it again"** Wouldn’t it be truly fantastic if Rose is reinstated to both baseball and HOF consideration and the voters don’t let him in? If I knew that’d happen, I’d favor him getting back in just to see the look on his face at the Press Conference (Autograph signing) that he would plan when he thought he’d be elected. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/59 "2002-12-12T17:03:11Z")
If Rose’s eligibility were restored, he would probably be elected to the HOF on his first try, but there would be a not insignificant number of voters who would leave him off their ballots. The original investigator ofhe case, John Dowd, thinks that Rose bet _against_ the Reds at times. [http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1212/1475769.html](http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1212/1475769.html) ---
**Author:** ![av8rmike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@av8rmike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/av8rmike)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011/60 "2002-12-12T19:27:27Z")
I freely admit my ignorance about baseball… and since the SDMB is all about Fighting Ignorance[sup]TM[/sup], could someone answer some questions: The permanent suspension, or lifetime ban, or whatever, has been in place for over 13 years, as has been mentioned. Why is there talk _now_ about lifting it? Why is it so important to do so? **Krispy Original** said that all these people want him back. To do what? He’s probably too old to play, and does he really need to or want to be a manager or batboy or whatever? And why should he get into the Hall of Fame? On the field, was he really _that_ good? Ignorance, I know, but I’m curious… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-pete-roses-lifetime-ban-from-baseball-be-lifted/142011.md?page=4)