# Should POLAND Give Back East Prussia To Germany? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593 "2004-08-26T13:46:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/41 "2011-05-30T13:46:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [hijack] > > Why does the capital of East Prussia, [Konigsberg (Kaliningrad)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad) (otherwise most famous as the hometown of Immanuel Kant), belong to **Russia** now?! So that it forms a Russian exclave with Lithuania on one side and Poland on the other. Stalin’s call, post-WWII, I suppose. But Stalin was no Russian himself (he was a Georgian). Why didn’t he give the city to Poland or Lithuania? It would have made more sense, and the city would have remained under Soviet control in any case. > > [/hijack] From the time of Peter the Great, one of Russia’s primary goals in expansion has been acquisition of a warm water port with access to the open ocean. They’ve never quite gotten one. ?But K-town is accessible without ice more of the year than St. Petersburg, and also is much harder to blockade away from the open ocean than the latter, which can be blockaded by a handful of Finns or ?Swedes with a grudge (an historically there have been many). ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/42 "2011-05-30T14:07:26Z")
Because Stalin was in everything but name a Russian Tsar and a Russian imperialist. Stalin was not ethnically Russian. However, when Lenin died and Stalin took control the Soviet Union essentially became de facto a resurrection of the Russian Empire. Lenin had genuine interest and belief in the whole “ideological spread of communism” and thought the world would eventually become 100% communist and the concept of “states” would disappear. All evidence suggests that while Stalin was happy when ideologically pro-communist revolutions happened around the world, Stalin was primarily focused with the interests of Russia and not particularly concerned with anything else. Stalin openly disliked other communist leaders who were not in personal fief to him. Stalin’s behavior clearly shows he viewed himself as essentially a Russian Emperor, and his actions were about maximizing the power of Russia, not of the rest of the Soviet Union and not of the “world communist movement.” During WWII Stalin supported the Kuomintang in China, he had peaceful relations with them after the war was over and he instructed Mao to make peace with the Kuomintang. He did this because he felt Chiang Kai-Shek’s China was a better bulwark against the Japanese. Mao basically ignored Stalin, and Sino-Soviet relations were strained from that point forward. Stalin had no use for communist leaders that didn’t accept Stalin’s authority. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/43 "2011-05-30T15:11:04Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > How odd, there was a German with a funny looking mustache who thought Germany was entitled to those same places. Godwin’s law. The mustache-guy also supported building autobahns. > [@medicated](#): > > That’s a very dangerous viewpoint. Is the Netherlands entitled to half of Belgium and a small part of France in order to unite the Dutch peoples? Or is Belgium entitled to the Netherlands for that same reason? Is Hungary entitled to much of Romania and chunks of Slovakia and Serbia? For that matter, shall Serbia gain much of Bosnia (because we know that is so popular there)? Shall Spain have Portugal (hey, they are only as distinct as the two governments decide they are)? Shall Russia annex the eastern half of Ukraine? Or, while we’re playing that game, is Britain entitled to huge parts of North America, Australia, South Africa, etc? What the hell are the criteria you use to decide which countries get to annex others? > > What makes the ‘German people’ distinct from, say, the Dutch or the Danes? Why are the Austrians included, but not (most of) the Swiss? What about Liechtenstein? Are they German? > > I don’t mean to be a dick, but the words ‘entitled to’ strike me as both bizarre and disturbing. I believe that you have not thought through the implications of your words. Well a lot of Germans in Sudetenland, Danzig, and Austria **wanted** reunification, and in addition there was precedent for all people of one ethnicity to be united after World War I. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/44 "2011-05-30T16:55:55Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Well a lot of Germans in Sudetenland, Danzig, and Austria **wanted** reunification, and in addition there was precedent for all people of one ethnicity to be united after World War I. Not in this case however. After the fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire the Germans living in Austria wanted to join Germany. Fear of an enlarged Germany compelled the victors to put a clause forbidding it in the Treaty of Versailles. While it is true ethnic regions combined it was also the case that massive migrations occured after WWI when the former wasn’t possible. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/45 "2011-05-30T17:24:52Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > From the time of Peter the Great, one of Russia’s primary goals in expansion has been acquisition of a warm water port with access to the open ocean. They’ve never quite gotten one. Vladivostok. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/46 "2011-05-30T18:58:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Vladivostok. Valdivostok freezes in the winter. Despite being near the northernmost extreme of the country, the European Russian port of Murmansk is ice-free year-round because of its location near the end of the Gulf Stream. ---
**Author:** ![seldompk3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@seldompk3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seldompk3)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/47 "2011-05-30T22:42:26Z")
> [@Darth\_Ayebaw](#): > > No. I think new annexation/permanent occupation/ect are wrong, but currently land shouldn’t be given up. The thing is, if you decide country X should have borders more matching it’s previous ones, then what happens when countries Y and Z also start demanding that? How far back do you go? Go back far enough and you’ll be kicking out people who were born and raised on ‘their’ land in order to give to to someone who has spend 80% of their life elsewhere. Go even farther and the maps really start looking strange. How does Germany recover their lands then? invasions. And so history is repeated thanks to that way of thinking. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/48 "2011-05-30T22:56:51Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Of course, I do not favour unjust and evil wars of aggression to build a Germany like that. However Germany was entitled to Austria, Danzig, and Sudetenland at the least IMO to unite all Germans. Dear God! This post self-godwinizes! ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/49 "2011-05-30T23:28:40Z")
I use the loss of German territory after the two world wars in order to justify Israeli expansion during the wars of 1948 and 1967. A price should be paid for starting and losing a war of aggression. The wars of 1948 and 1967 were intentionally wars of annihilation. The Arabs wanted to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews there. The Palestinians supported our enemies during the Second World War, the Cold War, and the War in the Guld. This is how they responded to 9/11: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k) The Palestinians have no claim to our sympathies at all. ---
**Author:** ![seldompk3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@seldompk3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seldompk3)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/50 "2011-05-30T23:40:08Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The Palestinians have no claim to our sympathies at all. Actually they do; americans simply ignore the existance of this video. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/51 "2011-05-31T01:06:43Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The Palestinians supported our enemies during the Second World War, the Cold War, and the War in the Guld. This is how they responded to 9/11: > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k) > > The Palestinians have no claim to our sympathies at all. Pro Tip: Linking to Fox News hyperbole is **very** damaging to your credibility around here. I thought you could use the advice. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/52 "2011-05-31T01:11:08Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Pro Tip: Linking to Fox News hyperbole is **very** damaging to your credibility around here. > > I thought you could use the advice. Take this, then: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/q-9JpRytCx0/hqdefault.jpg "Muslims Celebrating 9/11") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-9JpRytCx0) There is no question that large numbers of Palestinians celebrated 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/53 "2011-05-31T01:23:34Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Take this, then: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-9JpRytCx0&feature=related](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-9JpRytCx0&feature=related) > > There is no question that large numbers of Palestinians celebrated 9/11. Wow, you found another cite with the exact same group of morons on the exact same sidewalk. Your point is taken though, I withdraw my criticism and your 40 second clip of douchebags stands as concrete condemnation of an entire people. I’m an American so I hope someone doesn’t now link to a COPS episode. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Ayebaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darth_ayebaw/32/9870_2.png) [@Darth\_Ayebaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Ayebaw)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/54 "2011-05-31T01:50:07Z")
> [@seldompk3](#): > > How does Germany recover their lands then? invasions. And so history is repeated thanks to that way of thinking. I said Germany doesn’t recover their lands, so there’s no issue with that. ---
**Author:** ![medicated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@medicated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/medicated)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/55 "2011-05-31T03:03:43Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Godwin’s law. The mustache-guy also supported building autobahns. > > Well a lot of Germans in Sudetenland, Danzig, and Austria **wanted** reunification, and in addition there was precedent for all people of one ethnicity to be united after World War I. Yes, a lot of them did. That sure worked out well for them. Also worth noting: though it’s commonly said that the post WWI borders were based on ethnicity, that is simply absurd on its face. Yet another case of ‘common wisdom’ that turns out to be complete crap once one actually takes a look at it. The results had a lot more to do with realpolitik than any reflection of ethnic realities, whatever that might mean. Of course, Yugoslavia (an ethnically homogenous nation-state) has held together through thick and thin ever since the war. So I could be wrong about this. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/56 "2015-07-20T14:31:36Z")
Interesting…I expect that the ex-east Prussians are all pretty old by now…so no return to greater Germany. However, the future might bring about some changes, especially if Poland decides to accommodate German speakers inside Poland. What becomes of ethnic Russians now inside independent countries like Lithuania? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/57 "2015-07-20T14:36:29Z")
LIthuania has been independent of the USSR for 25 years. By now all of its Russian population has had sufficient time to consider their options and make their decisions, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/58 "2015-07-20T14:48:56Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Interesting…I expect that the ex-east Prussians are all pretty old by now…so no return to greater Germany. However, the future might bring about some changes, especially if Poland decides to accommodate German speakers inside Poland. > What becomes of ethnic Russians now inside independent countries like Lithuania? They’re Lithuanian citizens. [Homer Simpson] If they don’t like it, they can go to Russia. [/HS] Personally I’m still pushing for full restoration of Livonia and/or the Hanseatic League. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/59 "2015-07-20T15:43:52Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Interesting…I expect that the ex-east Prussians are all pretty old by now…so no return to greater Germany. I’m not sure you want to be using the term “Greater Germany” when discussing WW2 and redrawing borders; Grossdeutschland is a term highly tainted by the Nazis. I’ll repeat what I said in 2011: Germany can have East Prussia back when they give back the 6 million or so Poles they murdered in WW2. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/60 "2015-07-20T15:46:36Z")
Carpathia shall rise again! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593.md?page=4)