# Should POLAND Give Back East Prussia To Germany? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593 "2004-08-26T13:46:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/61 "2015-07-20T16:21:39Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Carpathia shall rise again! Do you mean Ruthenia? Because they’re kind of rising right now and it isn’t going so well. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/62 "2015-07-20T16:26:36Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > I’m not sure you want to be using the term “Greater Germany” when discussing WW2 and redrawing borders; Grossdeutschland is a term highly tainted by the Nazis. I’ll repeat what I said in 2011: Germany can have East Prussia back when they give back the 6 million or so Poles they murdered in WW2. Should ex-USSR (Byelorussia and Ukraine) have to give back the third of Poland it swallowed in their 1939 invasion? And what of their 45 year occupation and the millions of Poles they murdered including those who died in this incident? [Katyn massacre - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre) ? A better and more justifiable question is whether Russia should have to return their part of East Prussia. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/63 "2015-07-20T16:36:48Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > I’m not sure you want to be using the term “Greater Germany” when discussing WW2 and redrawing borders; Grossdeutschland is a term highly tainted by the Nazis. I’ll repeat what I said in 2011: Germany can have East Prussia back when they give back the 6 million or so Poles they murdered in WW2. The term “Greater Germany” is inaccurate in this context, but not so much for ist use by the Nazis. The term was originally coined in the 19th century as one of two possible answers to the “[German Question](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Question)”. The key difference to its alternative “Lesser Germany” was the inclusion of Austria. The region of East Prussia was included in both versions. As far as the OP is concerned the answer is no. The Germans do not want it back, the Poles do not want to give it back. Everyone has accepted the historical facts and moved on. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/64 "2015-07-20T16:42:48Z")
If you’re going to discuss historical grievances, you need to ask if East Prussia should have been German in the first place. The only reason it was under German control is because Germans conquered it back in the 13th century. You can make an argument that the postwar settlements weren’t giving German lands to the Poles but were just restoring Polish lands to the Poles. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/65 "2015-07-20T16:47:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If you’re going to discuss historical grievances, you need to ask if East Prussia should have been German in the first place. The only reason it was under German control is because Germans conquered it back in the 13th century. You can make an argument that the postwar settlements weren’t giving German lands to the Poles but were just restoring Polish lands to the Poles. Since the Germanics were in what we call Poland before the Slavs. the Germans were just taking back what was theirs in the first place. The argument is weak because most places on the planet have been conquered or swallowed up by migration many times. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/66 "2015-07-20T16:51:01Z")
We should cede Europe back to the Neanderthals. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/67 "2015-07-20T17:00:05Z")
They deserve it after the genocide we perpetrated against them. We apologize for our evil actions Neanderthals. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/68 "2015-07-20T18:10:39Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > …Germany can have East Prussia back when they give back the 6 million or so Poles they murdered in WW2. Correct and Amen. Germany’s war guilt was so obvious and so colossal that it is reasonable to consider it got off lightly. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/69 "2015-07-20T18:16:22Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Should ex-USSR (Byelorussia and Ukraine) have to give back the third of Poland it swallowed in their 1939 invasion? And what of their 45 year occupation and the millions of Poles they murdered including those who died in this incident? [Katyn massacre - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre) ? The preposterous logic in effect above is that if a victim cannot by compensated by _all_ of the criminals who violated it then it should be compensated by _none_ of them. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/70 "2015-07-20T18:16:56Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > The term “Greater Germany” is inaccurate in this context, but not so much for ist use by the Nazis. The term was originally coined in the 19th century as one of two possible answers to the “[German Question](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Question)”. The key difference to its alternative “Lesser Germany” was the inclusion of Austria. The region of East Prussia was included in both versions. When it was originally coined is nice and all, but denying that it was a cornerstone of Nazism flies in the face of reality: [Map of the administrative division of the Greater German Reich (»Großdeutsches Reich«/»Großdeutschland«/“Greater German Empire”/“Greater Germany”) by the NSDAP 1944 (in English).](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Greater_German_Reich_NS_Administration_1944.png) [Nazi Germany, geography](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany#Geography): > [@](#): > > Occupied territories > > Some of the conquered territories were immediately incorporated into Germany as part of Hitler’s long-term goal of creating a Greater Germanic Reich. Several areas, such as Alsace-Lorraine, were placed under the authority of an adjacent Gau (regional district). Beyond the territories incorporated into Germany were the Reichskommissariate (Reich Commissariats), quasi-colonial regimes established in a number of occupied countries. Areas placed under German administration included the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, Reichskommissariat Ostland (encompassing the Baltic states and Belarus), and Reichskommissariat Ukraine. Conquered areas of Belgium and France were placed under control of the Military Administration in Belgium and Northern France.[147] Part of Poland was immediately incorporated into the Reich, and the General Government was established in occupied central Poland.[148] Hitler intended to eventually incorporate many of these areas into the Reich.[149] > [@madsircool](#): > > Since the Germanics were in what we call Poland before the Slavs. the Germans were just taking back what was theirs in the first place. Just taking back what was theirs in the first place? I assume you are familiar with [Generalplan Ost](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost) and that the Nazis were intending to exterminate the Slavs as a race to as far as the Ural mountains? You might want to look into [Expulsion of Poles by Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Poles_by_Germany) as well: > [@](#): > > It is estimated that between 1.6 and 2 million people[16] were expelled from their homes during the German occupation of Poland. The Nazi German organized expulsions—by themselves—affected 1,710,000 Poles directly.[15] New verified estimates by Polish historians give the number of 2.478 million people expelled.[17] Additionally, 2.5 to 3 million Poles were taken from Poland to Germany as slave labourers to support the Nazi war effort.[8] These numbers do not include people arrested by the Germans and sent to Nazi concentration camps.[16] > > In many instances, Poles were given between 15 minutes and 1 hour to collect their personal belongings (usually no more than 15 kilograms per person) before they were removed from their homes and transported east (see: deportations) On top of that about 5 million Poles were sent to German labor and concentration camps.[18] A total of about 6 million Polish citizens were killed during the war, of which approximately half were Jews or of Jewish descent.[19][20] All these actions resulted in significant changes in Polish demographics at the end of the war.[19] ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/71 "2015-07-20T18:23:44Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > The preposterous logic in effect above is that if a victim cannot by compensated by _all_ of the criminals who violated it then it should be compensated by _none_ of them. I didnt say that, did I? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/72 "2015-07-20T18:26:49Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > When it was originally coined is nice and all, but denying that it was a cornerstone of Nazism flies in the face of reality: [Map of the administrative division of the Greater German Reich (»Großdeutsches Reich«/»Großdeutschland«/“Greater German Empire”/“Greater Germany”) by the NSDAP 1944 (in English).](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Greater_German_Reich_NS_Administration_1944.png) > > [Nazi Germany, geography](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany#Geography): > > Just taking back what was theirs in the first place? I assume you are familiar with [Generalplan Ost](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost) and that the Nazis were intending to exterminate the Slavs as a race to as far as the Ural mountains? You might want to look into [Expulsion of Poles by Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Poles_by_Germany) as well: I understand that. I was just responding to the idea that Poland was slavic before it was German. Central Europe has seen many waves of migration so no one really gets to claim that land as their own. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/73 "2015-07-20T18:44:25Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Since the Germanics were in what we call Poland before the Slavs. the Germans were just taking back what was theirs in the first place. The argument is weak because most places on the planet have been conquered or swallowed up by migration many times. This is inaccurate. The Poles have occupied Poland since before the ~900AD beginning on the recorded history of the country. I believe it is thought that during Roman era the Germanic Goths inhabited much of what is now modern Poland and then moved completely out by 500AD, thus terminating by abandonment the original Germanic title to the land. The Balts (Prussians, Letts and others) and Finnish peoples may have preceded the Slavs in former Goth and future Polish territory. The Slavs came into being in central Europe IIRC approx. the time the Goths were migrating, and spread in all directions eventually reaching the Elbe river in the west, bordering Charlemagne’s empire. Then the Slavs were in the process of centuries of border warfare with the Germans eventually driven several 100 miles east. They were able to hold their ground in what is now Poland, territory which the Germans had absolutely no legitimate claim to. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/74 "2015-07-20T18:51:21Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I didnt say that, did I? That was the obvious implication. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/75 "2015-07-20T19:10:07Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Since the Germanics were in what we call Poland before the Slavs. the Germans were just taking back what was theirs in the first place. The argument is weak because most places on the planet have been conquered or swallowed up by migration many times. If that’s your argument, it has a big flaw. The Germans weren’t there before the Slavs. The Slavs were there at least four hundred years before the Germans showed up. Granted, the region was once occupied by the Celts. So maybe we should just skip over the Russians and the Germans and the Poles and give the Kaliningrad Oblast to Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/76 "2015-07-20T19:21:52Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > This is inaccurate. > > The Poles have occupied Poland since before the ~900AD beginning on the recorded history of the country. > > I believe it is thought that during Roman era the Germanic Goths inhabited much of what is now modern Poland and then moved completely out by 500AD, thus terminating by abandonment the original Germanic title to the land. > > The Balts (Prussians, Letts and others) and Finnish peoples may have preceded the Slavs in former Goth and future Polish territory. > > The Slavs came into being in central Europe IIRC approx. the time the Goths were migrating, and spread in all directions eventually reaching the Elbe river in the west, bordering Charlemagne’s empire. Then the Slavs were in the process of centuries of border warfare with the Germans eventually driven several 100 miles east. They were able to hold their ground in what is now Poland, territory which the Germans had absolutely no legitimate claim to. The point madsircool was making is that nations are usually not justified in laying claim to an area based on the fact that their forefathers have lived there at some point in history. Most territories - especially in Europe - have been inhabited by different peoples throughout history and it would be impossible to determine who is the original “legitimate” owner. The region that is today Poland is no exception. We do not know exactly when the Poles’ Slavic ancestors first came to the region, whether it was uninhabited at the time and whether the migration was peaceful. If you are making the case that the Poles are rightfully entitled to their land due to some ancient history, that is not a problem today, because they are living there now and everyone is fine with that. But you could, by applying the same rationale, create claims for many nations to lands that they do not occupy today. And that is a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/77 "2015-07-20T21:02:46Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > The point madsircool was making is that nations are usually not justified in laying claim to an area based on the fact that their forefathers have lived there at some point in history. I was objecting to his contention that what is now Poland was ever relevantly inhabited by Germans. > [@Hiker](#): > > Most territories - especially in Europe - have been inhabited by different peoples throughout history and it would be impossible to determine who is the original “legitimate” owner. The region that is today Poland is no exception. We do not know exactly when the Poles’ Slavic ancestors first came to the region, whether it was uninhabited at the time and whether the migration was peaceful. As I clearly said, Poles have been in unbroken possession of most of what is now Poland for the entire recorded history of the region. IOW about 1200 years. Now, OP concerned East Prussia which has a different history, and was not a Polish possession until 1945. Briefly: as of ~1200 East Prussia had for centuries been inhabited by pagan tribes, the Prussians, who were neither Germanic nor Slav, but Balt. The Prussians were conquered by German crusaders and in the course of centuries were completely Germanized. We have covered why the land of the now lost ancient Prussians became Polish and why it should remain Polish. > [@Hiker](#): > > If you are making the case that the Poles are rightfully entitled to their land due to some ancient history, That is not what I said and I do not believe you are doing me the favor of reading my posts carefully enough to understand them. > [@Hiker](#): > > that is not a problem today, because they are living there now and everyone is fine with that. But you could, by applying the same rationale, create claims for many nations to lands that they do not occupy today. And that is a problem. Kindly address this to Mr. madsircool. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/78 "2015-07-20T22:31:37Z")
These days people move around Europe quite a lot. For holidays, to live or to work. Many retired people buy property in pursuit of an simpler lifestyle and a better climate. Usually people head south for that sort of thing. There are plenty of German speaking areas in Poland, if people feel a real attachment to an area, they can move there. The European Union has long since removed many of the territorial conflicts between European states that are members. In fact, it is a requirement for membership that such claims should be settled. There has been an organisation devoted to Polish-German reconciliation for many years now. [http://www.fpnp.pl/fundacja/ofpnp\_en.php](http://www.fpnp.pl/fundacja/ofpnp_en.php) Europe is riddled with territorial disputes and always has been. Harking back to which ancient tribe lived where to justify rival claims by nation states is not an argument that bears much examination. Europe has largely moved on from dictators peddling national myths…though that attitude still persists of you look East, which is a constant worry. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/79 "2015-07-20T22:49:48Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > These days people move around Europe quite a lot. For holidays, to live or to work. Many retired people buy property in pursuit of an simpler lifestyle and a better climate. Usually people head south for that sort of thing. There are plenty of German speaking areas in Poland, if people feel a real attachment to an area, they can move there. Thanks – I think you’re restating a point that I made about 11 years ago in post #6. There is one big obstacle to this free movement of people throughout Europe, however: Russia is outside the EU and looks unlikely to join it for the foreseeable future. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593/80 "2015-07-20T23:37:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If that’s your argument, it has a big flaw. The Germans weren’t there before the Slavs. The Slavs were there at least four hundred years before the Germans showed up. > > Granted, the region was once occupied by the Celts. So maybe we should just skip over the Russians and the Germans and the Poles and give the Kaliningrad Oblast to Ireland. Modern day Germans. Ancient Germans settled in Magna Germania until displaced by Slavic migration. The Welsh might be more fitting peoples to occupy the land. There is a Galicia in Poland and Spain and Wales in spanish is Gales. The Welsh are the only peoples tough enough to bring peace to the region. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-poland-give-back-east-prussia-to-germany/261593.md?page=5)