# Should police be only allowed to shoot if they can actually see a gun? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 23, 2015, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928 "2015-07-23T03:38:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/61 "2015-07-24T18:31:07Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Don’t sell our relationship short. I suspect that some day we’ll be best of friends (once we get away from political discussion) and it won’t take a zombie apocalypse to make it happen. 😃 Ah, but it’s the arguing that creates the bond. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/62 "2015-07-24T18:41:24Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > People saying Black Lives Matter aren’t saying that \*\*Only \*\*Black Lives Matter. They are saying that Black Lives Matter **Too**. > > …People in the Black Lives Matter have an agenda, about protesting the number of black people unnecessarily killed by the police. What agenda do people saying All Lives Matter have, other than trying to dismiss Black Lives Matter? (post shortened) The people saying black lives matter boo’d O’Malley for daring to say all lives matter and white lives matter. That doesn’t sound like they were saying, “black lives matter, too”. Yes, the People in the Black Lives Matter movement do have an agenda, or they wouldn’t have boo’d O’Malley. I guess they don’t believe O’Malley is Democrat enough. AFAIK, the people saying all lives matter actually believe that all lives matter. That doesn’t sound like a objectionable goal. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/63 "2015-07-24T18:49:03Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > AFAIK, the people saying all lives matter actually believe that all lives matter. That doesn’t sound like a objectionable goal. The slogan is a response to the perception that mainstream America pays insufficient attention to black deaths. When you respond with “All Lives Matter” you just fundamentally misunderstand the slogan, in much the same way (as pointed out earlier) that responding to “Save the Rainforests” with “Save All Trees” is missing the point. Indeed, it’s worse than that, because the whole problem is a failure of attention, so re-working the slogan to specifically remove that attention is completely antagonistic of the goal of the movement. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/64 "2015-07-24T18:53:19Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > FYI, when cops are involved in a shooting its not just a matter of saying “I feared for my safety” and they get a pass. Their actions have to be reasonable under the circumstances as they believed them to be at the time and they have to articulate their basis for their beliefs in reports and, possibly, testimony. > > I am a retired LEO and current police trainer. We will NEVER train officers to wait until they are sure its a gun. As pointed out up-thread, the risk is too great. If it is gun and the suspect intends to harm them, they are in deep trouble. The “They get paid to take those types of risks” is complete BS. They do NOT get paid to put the safety of suspects above their own. > > I know people don’t like to hear “Comply with the police” but police are (rightfully) trained that non-compliance is the number one predictor of an assault against an officer. I don’t have stats (because they don’t exist but there’s no reason they couldn’t) but it is my belief that the vast majority of police use-of-force incidents (including shootings) are preceded by non-compliance to a lawful order on the part of the suspect. So, when the officer says “Step out of the car, sir” step out of the car. Don’t engage in a debate with him about your rights or his authority. If you have a beef, settle it in court. Of course everyone should comply with the police. If I’m ever in a situation with an abusive cop who wants to arrest me or hassle me for no reason, I’m going to comply with his orders and hope to deal with it later in court. But white people get tons more leeway than black people tend to. Here’s an article with [8 white people who pointed guns at police officers and managed not to get killed](http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/8-white-people-who-pointed-guns-police-officers-and-managed-not-get-killed). I’m glad those people weren’t killed, they didn’t deserve to die, but there’s something going on if these people can be talked down but black people are shot so much quicker. I’m sure it’s not overt racism most of the time. No cop wakes up in the morning hoping to go out and kill some black people. But for some reason black people are more likely to be seen as threats, and so aggressive action is deemed to be necessary a lot quicker than with white people. I’m not sure how you deal with subconscious racism like that though. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/65 "2015-07-24T19:00:18Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > FYI, when cops are involved in a shooting its not just a matter of saying “I feared for my safety” and they get a pass. Their actions have to be reasonable under the circumstances as they believed them to be at the time and they have to articulate their basis for their beliefs in reports and, possibly, testimony. > > I am a retired LEO and current police trainer. We will NEVER train officers to wait until they are sure its a gun. Well, you’re wrong. Mountains of evidence indicates that you in fact can get a pass.(just say the magic words as mentioned upthread and don’t change your story, and don’t say anything else) As for shooting when you aren’t sure it’s a gun - this is why the police you train kill more people than anyone else. Your authority doesn’t make you objectively right. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/66 "2015-07-24T19:09:16Z")
I advocate that police should never be allowed to kill anyone, but if the officer gets killed, his ghost can seek revenge. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/67 "2015-07-24T19:18:30Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The slogan is a response to the perception that mainstream America pays insufficient attention to black deaths. When you respond with “All Lives Matter” you just fundamentally misunderstand the slogan, in much the same way (as pointed out earlier) that responding to “Save the Rainforests” with “Save All Trees” is missing the point. Indeed, it’s worse than that, because the whole problem is a failure of attention, so re-working the slogan to specifically remove that attention is completely antagonistic of the goal of the movement. Then the “slogan” was poorly thought out. “All lives matter” is a much better statement and is all-inclusive. If you wish to chant, “black lives matter”, no one is going to stop you. If you wish to boo someone for saying, “all lives matter”, or “white lives matter”, or “police lives matter”, people are going to assume that you mean “only black lives matter”. The Black Lives Matter cartel needs to hire a better PR firm. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/68 "2015-07-24T19:23:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **MrDibble** lives in South Africa. I assume he was part of a large crowd when he was shot at. I know. And, I figured as much. I don’t believe his chances of being shot and killed were as great as he implied, however. Even though no shots were fired, in my case, the guns were aimed directly at me and I would have been shot if I didn’t immediately comply with LE orders. Not that I’m stealth bragging about almost being shot, or anything like that. Yes, they were aiming their firearms at the center of my mass, which happens to be my penis (that’s how to stealth brag :D). ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/69 "2015-07-24T19:29:22Z")
“They were aiming their guns at my center of mass. I complied with their orders rather than get shot in the penis.” _That_ is how you stealth brag. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/70 "2015-07-24T19:30:30Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Then the “slogan” was poorly thought out. > > “All lives matter” is a much better statement and is all-inclusive. If you wish to chant, “black lives matter”, no one is going to stop you. If you wish to boo someone for saying, “all lives matter”, or “white lives matter”, or “police lives matter”, people are going to assume that you mean “only black lives matter”. > > The Black Lives Matter cartel needs to hire a better PR firm. I don’t think the messaging is really the problem. The people who think it means “only black lives matter” aren’t going to think differently about it if the “cartel” hires a better “PR firm.” ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/71 "2015-07-24T19:34:12Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > “They were aiming their guns at my center of mass. I complied with their orders rather than get shot in the penis.” > > _That_ is how you stealth brag. Yes, the joke is that my penis is so large, it is the most massive part of my body. Do I really have to explain these things to you??? Please, go back to Comedy 101. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/72 "2015-07-24T19:40:11Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > “They were aiming their guns at my center of mass. I complied with their orders rather than get shot in the penis.” > > _That_ is how you stealth brag. You’re still doing it wrong. “They were aiming their guns at my center of mass from 15 feet away, so I beat them to death with my penis.” ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/73 "2015-07-24T19:43:57Z")
Your phrasing was clumsy and lost much of what little humor the joke offered. My improved version of your joke was better phrased and used the classic set up-punchline structure. You can consider this your free comedy 101 review. You are welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/74 "2015-07-24T19:44:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You’re still doing it wrong. > > “They were aiming their guns at my center of mass from 15 feet away, so I beat them to death with my penis.” You get a gold star. Proceed to Humor 201. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/75 "2015-07-24T19:45:30Z")
My penis’s gravity well inexorably drew the muzzles of their pistols downward… ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/76 "2015-07-24T19:59:01Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > My penis’s gravity well inexorably drew the muzzles of their pistols downward… Oh, you’ve got one of those little peckers, huh (hee hee hee)? Sorry. My willy’s so massive it’s about to turn the Big Bang expansion of the universe into the Big Crunch contraction. So, y’all can thank me for saving you from the [Big Freeze](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_an_expanding_universe). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/77 "2015-07-25T11:04:37Z")
> [@Tibby or Not Tibby](#): > > I know. And, I figured as much. I don’t believe his chances of being shot and killed were as great as he implied, however. No more than 3 in 500 or so, that day, it turns out. > [@](#): > > Not that I’m stealth bragging about almost being shot, or anything like that. Like I said before, it wouldn’t be the sort of action I’d advertise, but hey, if you’re proud of how quickly you bow to authority, I won’t stop you. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/78 "2015-07-25T13:38:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > …Not routinely armed ones, no. Unarmed beat cops, I have no beef with… I have no problem disarming cops, as long as the criminals are disarmed first. **Mr. Dibble** , since you’re so concerned about law enforcement tactics in our country, how about if my fellow Americans chip in for plane fare for you to fly over here so you can personally disarm our criminals? You can go to all of their sinister lairs and back alleys of all of our major cities and ask the nefarious characters to exchange their weapons for…I dunno, candy, fluffy bunny rabbits, tickets to the policeman’s ball. Tell us when you’ve succeeded in getting all the weapons, and then we will dis-arm our cops. Deal? > [@MrDibble](#): > > …If they’re face to face, they’ll just be shooting over each other’s shoulders, wouldn’t they… I don’t know about the anatomy and physiology of South Africans, but people here in America have arms and elbows that rotate and bend, so you can be face-to-face and still blow a hole into each other’s aorta. > [@MrDibble](#): > > …That would be rude. He has to say “Please” too… No, _“pretty please with a cherry on top”_ should be the bare minimum. > [@MrDibble](#): > > …I disagree, quite strongly… Maybe you’re right. Maybe hard core criminals just need a nice foot rub and a chocolate mint. > [@MrDibble](#): > > …I’m not really interested - I have actually been shot at by cops armed with automatic weapons, your tale of instant compliance to fascists isn’t going to move me… Instant compliance to fascists you say? Dang, I knew one of the cops pointing his revolver at me was a coach in my daughter’s softball league…but, I had no idea he was a fascist, too. Well, ya learn something new each day. > [@MrDibble](#): > > …And these are the kind of damaged souls you think we should just allow to shoot first?.. No, this is an example of the type of soul you would like to populate the police force with. My sister’s boyfriend was an emotional wreck because he had _too much_ empathy. He was a pacifist. He worked night beat in one of the roughest neighborhoods of Philadelphia. He was the type of person who _wouldn’t_ fire his revolver even if he was fired upon. He and his brother were not cut out for the job and they paid the price. You think populating the nation’s inner city police departments with Barney Fife and Mr. Rogers type souls is going to end well? You think criminals can’t sense weakness and won’t exploit that to their advantage? Let me pop whatever kind of pills your popping. > [@MrDibble](#): > > …Sorry, all my respect for cops disappeared when I lived in an actual police state. Good luck with that going forward, Yanks… Indeed, we here in America are on the cusp of martial law. Fellow Americans, what time is our curfew again? Do I have time to go out for a nightcap and maybe a corned beef on rye before the storm troopers blanket the neighborhoods? Sorry, but despite what appears to be your hopes and dreams, America is not going to turn into a Mad Max movie anytime soon. Let me mainline whatever you’re shooting up. There is some middle ground between _racist, fascist martial law_ and _kill all the cops_. How about a little moderation, eh? I live in the burbs now, but I spent plenty of years in rough neighborhoods of three large American cities: Philadelphia, Cleveland and Miami. I would not have liked to be protected by a fascist, racist police force in any of those locations and by and large I wasn’t (Philly cops had some racist problems in the 60’s and 70’s under police commissioner cum Mayor, Frank Rizzo, but they appear to have cleaned up their act). On the other hand, I would not have liked to be protected by a police force of Barney Fifes, either. I want tough but fair cops—and the great majority of them are just that. I also believe that the vast majority of police agencies, internal affairs, etc. don’t want rogue, trigger-happy racist cops on their forces, either. Of course they go into lock-down mode when the police abuse stories first hit the press, before investigations commence. They need to maintain an image of stability. If the general population lost confidence in LE, chaos would ensue. But, generally, the bad cops are eventually weeded out and brought to justice. No system is perfect, however, and some bad apples slip through the cracks. Work harder to get them thrown out—but don’t advocate killing cops as a viable solution. > [@MrDibble](#): > > …Like I said before, it wouldn’t be the sort of action I’d advertise, but hey, if you’re proud of how quickly you bow to authority, I won’t stop you… It has nothing at all to do with being proud; it’s just called not being an idiot. If LE orders you to do something, do it. It’s advice that if heeded more often would result in more people being alive today. I am proud to be a good father to my daughters and that is something I would not have had a chance to continue if I didn’t drop to the ground when I did. Tell me, if you were in my situation, when a false report was made to the police department at 3:10am that I had just murdered someone and was armed and when the police arrived at 3:13am at my house and I ran out the front door after my young daughter who ran out after her dog who ran out after my wife (who was as high as a kite and making a loud commotion) and I had in my right hand what in the silhouette of the night could certainly be mistaken for a handgun(but was in fact a cordless phone), giving the appearance that I posed a deadly threat not only to the officers, but also to 2 other people and a dog, and the three cops aiming their service revolvers ordered me to drop and I dropped…you would have done something different? What exactly would you have done? Kept on running toward the cops? Yell, _“screw you coppers, I ain’t bowing to no authority figures!”_? Point the phone at them and say, _“Bang Bang, you’re dead!”_? Pick up the dog and throw her at them (she’s small, but has good stopping power if thrown hard enough)? And what do you want for pulling a stunt like that, an award for bravery? I’ll give you an award, but it will be a Darwin and I’ll nail it to your headstone. It’s very simple, if someone has a gun pointed at you, it’s almost always in your best interest to do what they order you to do (it’s the only way my mother could get me to bed when I was a kid). Ask questions or take them to court later if you think they didn’t properly follow procedure, but it’s not brave to get yourself killed for no good reason, it’s just incredibly stupid. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/79 "2015-07-26T14:22:44Z")
> [@Tibby or Not Tibby](#): > > Tell us when you’ve succeeded in getting all the weapons, and then we will dis-arm our cops. Deal? No deal, I said nothing about disarming the criminals, that’s your strawman. > [@](#): > > I don’t know about the anatomy and physiology of South Africans, but people here in America have arms and elbows that rotate and bend, so you can be face-to-face and still blow a hole into each other’s aorta. You don’t say. > [@](#): > > No, _“pretty please with a cherry on top”_ should be the bare minimum. No sprinkles? That blows. > [@](#): > > Maybe you’re right. Maybe hard core criminals just need a nice foot rub and a chocolate mint. Or maybe they’ll just fall into the giant excluded middle between shoot-on-sight and day spa. > [@](#): > > Instant compliance to fascists you say? If the jackboots fit… > [@](#): > > Dang, I knew one of the cops pointing his revolver at me was a coach in my daughter’s softball league… This story keeps getting better and better. > [@](#): > > but, I had no idea he was a fascist, too. Well, ya learn something new each day. Hey, I only have your descriptions to go on. You were describing a bunch of armed men forcing instant compliance from you. That you’ve Stockholmed this into non-fascist behaviour is your prerogative, like I said. > [@](#): > > No, this is an example of the type of soul you would like to populate the police force with. No, I have expressed no desire to populate the police with mental cases. > [@](#): > > My sister’s boyfriend was an emotional wreck because he had _too much_ empathy. He was a pacifist. You say that like there’s a connection. I’m a pacifist, and you should be able to tell how much empathy I exude… I didn’t say I want the beat police to be pacifists. Just not armed with guns. The two are not equivalent. > [@](#): > > You think populating the nation’s inner city police departments with Barney Fife and Mr. Rogers type souls is going to end well? I’ve said no such thing. > [@](#): > > You think criminals can’t sense weakness and won’t exploit that to their advantage? By this logic, countries without armed beat police must, necessarily, be overrun by armed criminals… > [@](#): > > Indeed, we here in America are on the cusp of martial law. Errm, no, you’re confusing the military for the police (admittedly, in your country this is [an easy mistake to make](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarization_of_police#/media/File:Police_sharpshooter_at_Ferguson_protests.jpg).) > [@](#): > > Sorry, but despite what appears to be your hopes and dreams My hope and dream is for America to join the community of sane nations sometime in the not too distant future. But that’s not going to happen as long as gun culture is as powerful as it is… > [@](#): > > There is some middle ground between _racist, fascist martial law_ and _kill all the cops_. I didn’t say anything about _killing_ the cops. Just that they should stop being such wimps and assume real risk. > [@](#): > > I live in the burbs now, but I spent plenty of years in rough neighborhoods of three large American cities: Philadelphia, Cleveland and Miami. I would not have liked to be protected by a fascist, racist police force in any of those locations and by and large I wasn’t I don’t trust solely your judgement of whether the cops were racist or not. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, I would not have liked to be protected by a police force of Barney Fifes, either. I want tough but fair cops—and the great majority of them are just that. And I want tough, fair cops who aren’t in a position to shoot innocent people, that’s the only difference. > [@](#): > > I also believe that the vast majority of police agencies, internal affairs, etc. don’t want rogue, trigger-happy racist cops on their forces, either. If you choose to believe that, that’s your choice, he said tautologically. > [@](#): > > Of course they go into lock-down mode when the police abuse stories first hit the press, before investigations commence. They need to maintain an image of stability. Maybe if they cared more about the populace and less about their image, they’d be more trustworthy. > [@](#): > > If the general population lost confidence in LE, chaos would ensue. The police are _not_ all that stands between order and chaos in the streets, but it’s that kind of thinking that no doubt leads some of you to need a Big Strong Boss. It’s kind of like the way some Christians think that without God-given morality, atheists must have nothing holding them back from the murdering and the raping and the stealing. And I thought I was cynical… > [@](#): > > But, generally, the bad cops are eventually weeded out and brought to justice. I don’t believe that. Just looking at the blue wall of silence in action in recent cases gives the lie to that kind of thinking. > [@](#): > > No system is perfect, however, and some bad apples slip through the cracks. It’s always “some bad apples” - you ever considered maybe the rot is set into the barrel itself? > [@](#): > > Work harder to get them thrown out—but don’t advocate killing cops as a viable solution. I’m not advocating killing cops, I’m advocating having them assume greater risk. The end result may be more dead cops either way, but the morality is way, way different. > [@](#): > > It has nothing at all to do with being proud; it’s just called not being an idiot. If LE orders you to do something, do it. History says…no. > [@](#): > > It’s advice that if heeded more often would result in more people being alive today. And I’d still live in a racist police state. > [@](#): > > I am proud to be a good father to my daughters and that is something I would not have had a chance to continue if I didn’t drop to the ground when I did. And I would not be in a position to _be_ a father to my mixed-race daughters today, if we’d all just did what the cops told us, in the 80s. > [@](#): > > Tell me, if you were in my situation, when a false report was made to the police department at 3:10am that I had just murdered someone and was armed and when the police arrived at 3:13am at my house and I ran out the front door after my young daughter who ran out after her dog who ran out after my wife (who was as high as a kite and making a loud commotion) and I had in my right hand what in the silhouette of the night could certainly be mistaken for a handgun(but was in fact a cordless phone), giving the appearance that I posed a deadly threat not only to the officers, but also to 2 other people and a dog, and the three cops aiming their service revolvers ordered me to drop and I dropped…you would have done something different? Like I said, better and better… No, I’d have gone down in a hail of bullets, because I’m the slowest-to-react person I know. > [@](#): > > What exactly would you have done? Probably have started talking. Then gone down in a hail of bullets, since your cops are the hair-trigger types with the shitty eyesight and no torches. > [@](#): > > It’s very simple, if someone has a gun pointed at you, it’s almost always in your best interest to do what they order you to do It’s not the compliance, it’s the post-hoc justification for the rightness of the cops’ actions that’s the issue. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/80 "2015-07-26T15:24:18Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > In the actual real world, this may in fact work. The cops in the UK don’t even have guns, and they aren’t dying on the job as much as American cops. [Countries ranked by guns per capita.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country) The US is #1 at 88 per person. Serbia is at #2 with 69.7. UK is at #88 with 6.6. American cops are pretty messed up, but get real. I’d love to see bobbies in their big dumb hats roll up on some gang bangers slanging crack on a corner. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928.md?page=5)