# Should police be only allowed to shoot if they can actually see a gun? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 23, 2015, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928 "2015-07-23T03:38:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/81 "2015-07-26T16:45:34Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The US is #1 at 88 per person. I believe you meant 88 per hundred persons. [QUOTE=Yakov Smirnoff] Every person owns 88 guns. What a country! [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/82 "2015-07-26T18:03:13Z")
Have you thought through the end results of your proposed policy? Do you understand the concept of nature abhors a vacuum? If you disable the police by your proposed polices the vacuum of a greatly hindered police force will be a substantial increase in violence by armed criminals who now feel they will have an upper hand. This is not just against the police but against each other and the general population. You will get your wish of 10% more police killed in the line of duty, actually much more IMHO. However you will not see the body count on the other side go down, in fact it will go up. The number of dead on the criminal side will increase as they will be going after each other to a higher degree than now. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/83 "2015-07-26T19:18:41Z")
**MrDibble** , look, I’m not on the opposite side of your debate (well, I am with regard to culling the police), I’m somewhere in the middle, but nowhere near your extreme position. > [@MrDibble](#): > > …No deal, I said nothing about disarming the criminals, that’s your strawman… I agree America is too gun-loving. I’d very much like to see no firearms whatsoever in America. But, the day that happens is not even on the horizon. I don’t own a gun. My friends don’t own guns. My ex and her boyfriend who live next door have a gun, so that kind of sucks. But, most law-abiding Americans don’t own guns. I think it’s safe to assume that a large % of non-law abiding American citizens probably carry a gun, however. So, for you to propose that LEO’s should be the only subset of society to **not** be allowed to carry a gun is ludicrous. > [@MrDibble](#): > > …This story keeps getting better and better… Thank you. Unless you’re implying that I’m lying. In that case, _“phhhhhhhtttttt!!!”_ > [@MrDibble](#): > > …Hey, I only have your descriptions to go on. You were describing a bunch of armed men forcing instant compliance from you. That you’ve Stockholmed this into non-fascist behaviour is your prerogative, like I said… Well, I guess 3 could be considered a bunch, ok. But, I didn’t go off with the cops and start shooting bad guys after our encounter, so Stockholm syndrome doesn’t really apply. The 3 cops who responded to my wife’s psychotic call acted in no way as fascists (maybe they are in their spare time, who knows…maybe you are, too). They were doing their job and they did it well. After the fact, I understood exactly what I must have looked like running after my wife and daughter with a black gun-shaped object in my hand. To their credit, they gave me the opportunity to drop to the ground before firing. They would not have given me an opportunity to continue what I was doing for more than a couple more seconds, nor should they have. What, if _ **I** _ was the psychotic one (that’s how I was described on the call to the dispatcher) and my phone really was a gun? The confrontation could have ended with me killing a young girl. They had to make a split second decision and I had sense enough to follow their order. Given that exact scenario, or one similar to it, if you think I made it up, **Mr. Dibble** , what would you have done if you were the cop responding to that call? I would have done exactly what they did (at least I hope I would). How about you? > [@MrDibble](#): > > …No, I have expressed no desire to populate the police with mental cases… No, just a culled force of unarmed cops who have to say “please” to armed criminals. > [@MrDibble](#): > > …I didn’t say anything about killing the cops. Just that they should stop being such wimps and assume real risk… You obviously lived through South African Apartheid. I get it. I can understand your hatred of police and authority. But, modern day America is not like 60’s – 80’s South Africa and to say that we are is not only naïve, but also unhelpful to anyone’s cause. We certainly have a racist past (we’re not the only nation with one of those) and it lasted too long. But, since the days of Jim Crow, racial relations have been greatly improving. Yes, racism still exists, even in police departments, and it needs to be addressed and vigorously excised, but trigger-happy and/or racist cops do not exist at levels you seem to be implying, or perhaps as the world perceives us. We have ~319 million people in the US and a police force of ~900,000. And, we have 24/7 news agencies whose reporters report on each and every case of police abuse and blast it to the world. That’s a good thing, but it gives the impression the problem is more rampant than it is. ~1100 police killings last year. I’m guessing ~1/3 of those were justified (i.e. not stopping them immediately could have resulted in a cop or innocent bystander being killed). And, maybe another 1/3 of them could reasonably be interpreted as being as being justified (in the heat of the moment, the perception of a deadly threat existed toward a cop or innocent bystander). So maybe there were ~400 unjustified killings by cops last year. Not all of those would have been racially motivated. Some could have been done by cops who simply shouldn’t be cops (e.g. psychologically unfit; paranoid…). So, let’s say a couple hundred unjustified killings by cops out of a population of 319 million. That number is certainly still too large and needs to be addressed. But, it’s not anything close to putting America on the verge of being a police state or martial law. Have some perspective. I’m somewhat confident that the world’s impression of the American Deep South is that it is a cesspool of rampant racism. That seems to be the message broadcast globally. And again, there is historical background to support that assertion (i.e. slavery, minstrel, Jim Crow…). But, the modern American South, in general, is enlightened (despite some confederate flag-waving idiots). I’m from New Jersey (no jokes, thank you very much), but I’ve lived in the deep south for a few decades. I’ve seen very little personal or institutional racism since I’ve lived here. Yes, not being black, I can’t relate to the subtle racial affronts black people have dealt with all their lives, but, I can say that I have a lot of black friends, neighbors, co-workers and former girlfriends and they all appear to be happy here in the American South. It’s not the cesspool you imagine it to be. The census clearly shows that [African Americans](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/census/2011-06-30-black-south-census-migration_n.htm) are moving to the [American South](http://madamenoire.com/413042/going-home-african-americans-returning-south-record-numbers/) in [record numbers](http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2011/08/why_blacks_are_moving_back_south_the_reverse_migration.html). Tell me, **Mr. Dibble** , are they making a big mistake moving south? Sure, many are moving south for economic reasons or for a better climate (the reason I moved down here). But, do you really think they’d make the move if they didn’t think they would have a better life down here? Would they move down here if they thought their lives would be in danger? Don’t base your understanding of America on sound bites you get on often self-serving and biased news accounts. They are in the business of sensationalizing the news to bolster the bottom line of their employers. Visit America. We’ll give you a big slice of apple pie. Well, don’t visit me personally…you seem like kind of a douche to me (no offence intended)…but, visit some other American, like **Shagnasty** or \*\*Idle Thoughts \*\*(she’s very cute and has a big rack) :D. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/84 "2015-07-27T05:52:39Z")
> [@Tibby or Not Tibby](#): > > I think it’s safe to assume that a large % of non-law abiding American citizens probably carry a gun, however. Actually, I’m curious what the actual percentage there might be… > [@](#): > > So, for you to propose that LEO’s should be the only subset of society to **not** be allowed to carry a gun is ludicrous. My initial proposal was just that LEOs not be allowed to shoot first. > [@](#): > > Thank you. Unless you’re implying that I’m lying. No, I’m just fascinated by the details as it unfolds. Much better than if it was all told in one go. > [@](#): > > Well, I guess 3 could be considered a bunch, ok. But, I didn’t go off with the cops and start shooting bad guys after our encounter, so Stockholm syndrome doesn’t really apply. Defending their actions after the fact is enough > [@](#): > > The 3 cops who responded to my wife’s psychotic call acted in no way as fascists (maybe they are in their spare time, who knows…maybe you are, too). Naah, in my off hours I’m a Bolshevik… > [@](#): > > They were doing their job and they did it well Being one micro-second’s hesitation from shooting an unarmed man is not “well” > [@](#): > > No, just a culled force of unarmed cops who have to say “please” to armed criminals. No, it’s pretty please with a cherry and sprinkles… > [@](#): > > You obviously lived through South African Apartheid. I get it. I can understand your hatred of police and authority. No, I really don’t think you can. > [@](#): > > But, modern day America is not like 60’s – 80’s South Africa and to say that we are is not only naïve, but also unhelpful to anyone’s cause. No, they’re not alike - for instance, modern America has far _more_[Blacks in prison](http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/dec/11/nicholas-kristof/kristof-us-imprisons-blacks-rates-higher-south-afr/), both in absolute numbers and as a percentage of population. Tell me which is the racist state, now? > [@](#): > > But, since the days of Jim Crow, racial relations have been greatly improving. The prison numbers say different. > [@](#): > > But, it’s not anything close to putting America on the verge of being a police state or martial law. Have some perspective. If you think it’s only the number of wrongful racist killings that earn the appellation of police state, you’re mistaken. The dramatically increased incarceration rates overall, the militarization of police forces, the erosion of privacy - these all combine. The current rash extrajudicial executions is just a single visible symptom, not the whole enchilada. > [@](#): > > I’m somewhat confident that the world’s impression of the American Deep South is that it is a cesspool of rampant racism. No more so than lots of places. But what it has, that the other areas don’t, is vocal racism denialists. I’m sure one will be along shortly… > [@](#): > > That seems to be the message broadcast globally. And again, there is historical background to support that assertion (i.e. slavery, minstrel, Jim Crow…). But, the modern American South, in general, is enlightened (despite some confederate flag-waving idiots). …that didn’t take long. > [@](#): > > I’ve seen very little personal or institutional racism since I’ve lived here. Yes, not being black Enough said. > [@](#): > > The census clearly shows that [African Americans](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/census/2011-06-30-black-south-census-migration_n.htm) are moving to the [American South](http://madamenoire.com/413042/going-home-african-americans-returning-south-record-numbers/) in [record numbers](http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2011/08/why_blacks_are_moving_back_south_the_reverse_migration.html). Tell me, **Mr. Dibble** , are they making a big mistake moving south? I wonder what the numbers are like if you take, say, Atlanta out of the mix? Blacks aren’t moving back to Dixieland, they’re moving back to places like Atlanta, urban centers where Dixie is no longer the king. I think it’s disingenuous to extrapolate from that to a general overall reduction in Southern racism other than in an abstract sense. > [@](#): > > Don’t base your understanding of America on sound bites you get on often self-serving and biased news accounts. I don’t. I base it on both the numbers, and on the black American voices I’ve encountered that I trust (like some here on the Dope) > [@](#): > > visit some other American, like **Shagnasty** Errm, do you think you could pick someone who _didn’t_ have a recent pitting [go South](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=761102) (heh) because of his racism apologetics? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/85 "2015-07-27T10:38:20Z")
> [@Tibby or Not Tibby](#): > > The 3 cops . . . acted in no way as fascists (maybe they are in their spare time, who knows…maybe you are, too). > > (she’s very cute and has a big rack) :D. Let’s leave the personal remarks out of this forum. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928/86 "2015-07-27T18:42:54Z")
There was an interesting article that I read today that ties into this thread. It’s by an Iraq War vet who had his apartment raided by police after he returned. [Washington Post: In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/in-iraq-i-raided-insurgents-in-virginia-the-police-raided-me/2015/07/24/2e114e54-2b02-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-police-be-only-allowed-to-shoot-if-they-can-actually-see-a-gun/725928.md?page=4)