# Should President Obama pardon Chelsea Manning? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003 "2016-11-14T21:38:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/41 "2016-11-18T15:11:53Z")
79.48% of all statistics are made up on the spot. ([Cite](http://www.stat.wisc.edu/quotes).) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/42 "2016-11-18T15:18:14Z")
Great. Got an example of leaked information that should have remained classified because releasing it put lives in danger? Got any example at all of leaked information that was classified for a reason other than saving face or covering up crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/43 "2016-11-18T15:18:43Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Troop movements, battle plans, undercover operations, information that actually puts US citizens in danger? Yes, keep that shit classified. Video evidence of the US perpetrating war crimes? Fuck that. > > 95% of “classified” information is only classified to avoid embarrassing or implicating in a crime taxpayer-funded government officials. And as taxpayers, we deserve to know ALL of that information. Our government, who works for us and is paid by us, should not get to hide their crimes and mistakes from their employer, the US citizen. > > So yes, if their superiors won’t be honest with us, I am 100% for PFCs pulling back the curtain. Since you can’t back up your spurious “95%” statistic, can you tell me how many war crimes were exposed by her theft and leaks? You should be able to back that up. And since she stole several hundred thousand documents, by your logic, she must have exposed a few hundred thousand war crimes, I would think. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/44 "2016-11-18T15:23:07Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > 95% of “classified” information is only classified to avoid embarrassing or implicating in a crime taxpayer-funded government officials. And as taxpayers, we deserve to know ALL of that information. Our government, who works for us and is paid by us, should not get to hide their crimes and mistakes from their employer, the US citizen. With a statement like this, I’ll assume you’ve never had a classified document in your hand. It’s impossible to have a serious debate with claims like that. ---
**Author:** ![Bouncer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Bouncer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bouncer)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/45 "2016-11-18T15:33:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yes, they do. That doesn’t change the fact that clandestinely selling secret information to our national enemies is not remotely the same thing as releasing secret information openly to the American public, in a manner that makes them also available to our national enemies. In much the same way that deliberately walking up to a person and shooting them in the head is not the same crime as firing a gun into the air, and accidentally killing someone when the bullet falls back to earth - even though both acts result in someone dying from a gunshot. It’s more like firing a gun into a crowd than into the air. It’s reckless disregard for the potentially deadly consequences with an extreme likelihood of causing grievous injury. It is not the same as assassinating someone, but it’s not that far away either. In both cases the willingness to kill/injure is present, the only difference is whether the target is specific or not. Bradley Manning should not receive clemency or a pardon. He signed multiple Non-Disclosure Agreements that specified the penalties he could face. He took repeated, required yearly training on safeguarding the material. He deliberately violated his oath as a soldier, his written promise on the NDAs and the national security of the United States for his own, ego driven, reasons. He placed Americans at personal risk by doing so, and he exposed citizens of other countries (intelligence assets) to risk of harm as well. His actions gravely impacted the ability of the United States to recruit assets or further their relationship with current assets. Finally, it impacted the diplomatic and security relations the US has with a number of countries, setting back diplomatic efforts in some locations by years if not decades. All this damage, to feed his ego. No clemency. No pardon. He should serve his full term. Regards, -Bouncer- ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/46 "2016-11-18T15:46:19Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > No. But you don’t have one that contradicts it. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. Otherwise I could say, _“In a galaxy far, far away lies a planet with a human civilization identical to ours, with the same clothing, technology, agriculture and behavior. I have no proof for this, however, you have no proof that it **doesn’t** exist, therefore I’m right.”_ ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/47 "2016-11-18T15:48:07Z")
Anyone want to provide evidence for even a single leak of classified information that put lives in danger? Anyone? Not talking about giving Russians nuclear secrets in the '40s, but a leak by Wikileaks, Snowden, Manning, etc in the past decade or so. Just a single piece of info that was leaked, but shouldn’t have been because it put lives in danger, is all it takes to get me to change my mind. In the six or seven years or so this has been a newsworthy topic, I’ve yet to see a single piece of information that actually should have been classified to begin with. And yes, I had a secret clearance in the Army. I know that basically anyone can classify any document for any reason. And that most of those reasons have to do with furthering their career goals than anything to do with national security. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/48 "2016-11-18T15:50:27Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim Everyone besides me in this thread has made the claim that Manning put the United States in danger. I’ve yet to see a single citation for that extraordinary claim. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/49 "2016-11-18T15:53:19Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Anyone want to provide evidence for even a single leak of classified information that put lives in danger? Anyone? Not talking about giving Russians nuclear secrets in the '40s, but a leak by Wikileaks, Snowden, Manning, etc in the past decade or so. > > Just a single piece of info that was leaked, but shouldn’t have been because it put lives in danger, is all it takes to get me to change my mind. In the six or seven years or so this has been a newsworthy topic, I’ve yet to see a single piece of information that actually should have been classified to begin with. > > And yes, I had a secret clearance in the Army. I know that basically anyone can classify any document for any reason. And that most of those reasons have to do with furthering their career goals than anything to do with national security. [Valerie Plame.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/50 "2016-11-18T15:57:48Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Everyone besides me in this thread has made the claim that Manning put the United States in danger. I’ve yet to see a single citation for that extraordinary claim. I’m not referring to Manning putting America in danger, but your claim that 95% of classified information is classified due to embarrassment rather than national-security necessity. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/51 "2016-11-18T15:59:02Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Valerie Plame.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair) Great. One we agree on. I specifically excepted “undercover operatives” along with troop movements, etc as information that should remain classified because it put lives in danger. And Mrs. Plame wasn’t outed by Wikileaks, Manning, or Snowden either, but by the State Department in retaliation for an article her husband wrote. Apparently leaking classified info is a big deal when it’s covering up government crimes and embarrassment, no big whoop when you’re outing undercover agents in the field out of spite. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/52 "2016-11-18T16:46:13Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Great. One we agree on. I specifically excepted “undercover operatives” along with troop movements, etc as information that should remain classified because it put lives in danger. And Mrs. Plame wasn’t outed by Wikileaks, Manning, or Snowden either, but by the State Department in retaliation for an article her husband wrote. > > Apparently leaking classified info is a big deal when it’s covering up government crimes and embarrassment, no big whoop when you’re outing undercover agents in the field out of spite. :smack: Only Blair Walsh could hit those goal posts. Back to it, where’s those hundreds of thousands of war crimes? Hell, I’ll take a dozen. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/53 "2016-11-18T16:48:17Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Everyone besides me in this thread has made the claim that Manning put the United States in danger. I’ve yet to see a single citation for that extraordinary claim. I haven’t seen you back up your 95% assertion nor the idea that, by your logic, many many thousands of war crimes were exposed. Pot, kettle, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/54 "2016-11-18T18:25:25Z")
Can I be in the position that I think it was reasonable for Manning to do what she did, but also think she shouldn’t be pardoned? I am of the opinion that if something under your purview is classified, you should feel _so strongly_ that it needs to be out there that you’re willing to take the punishment for doing so. Given values of punishment, of course, but this seems like an area where you should be incredibly certain that you’re doing the right thing, and having a big weight on the other end of the scale seems like a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/55 "2016-11-18T20:02:43Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > 95% of “classified” information is only classified to avoid embarrassing or implicating in a crime taxpayer-funded government officials. Even if your right, just because the release of some information is embarrassing to a taxpayer-funded government official, doesn’t mean it should be released. For example, two memos between diplomats might read. “I don’t think that Putin is being forthright in his dealing with us and may be conspiring with Turkey against the Kurds. Although we may want to publicly support his actions against ISIS we should be prepared to back out of any agreement we make with him or Turkey.” Or “The Saudi ambassador is a spoiled child who was put in charge due to nepotism. If you really want to get anything done, you need to talk to his supordinant Ali Babba.” The release of these memos would be highly embarrassing to the United States if it were released, and significantly damage our relations with Turkey and Russia and Saudi Arabia. But it is also exactly the sort of thing that diplomats need to be able to discuss. The US government can’t function if people can’t express their views without the assumption that every word is going to find its way onto the front page of the New York times. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/56 "2016-11-18T20:06:22Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Can I be in the position that I think it was reasonable for Manning to do what she did, but also think she shouldn’t be pardoned? > > I am of the opinion that if something under your purview is classified, you should feel _so strongly_ that it needs to be out there that you’re willing to take the punishment for doing so. Given values of punishment, of course, but this seems like an area where you should be incredibly certain that you’re doing the right thing. Well, yes, I can accept that. If someone so strongly feels it is necessary to rebel or mutiny, then be prepared to accept the consequences as they come, (and include the possibility you may be making the wrong call). Don’t expect that accolades as a noble fighter for righteousness are coming your way. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/57 "2016-11-19T18:57:26Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > T > > 95% of “classified” information is only classified to avoid embarrassing or implicating in a crime taxpayer-funded government officials. A Completely false. I had access to some classified info, and \*none \*of it was like that. Besides, many, many people can see classified info, and someone would have spilled the beans. True the pentagon pagers did show a seamy underside, but not like you say. Nor have any other dumps/leaks. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2016, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/58 "2016-11-20T00:31:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Completely false. > > I had access to some classified info, and \*none \*of it was like that. > > Besides, many, many people can see classified info, and someone would have spilled the beans. True the pentagon pagers did show a seamy underside, but not like you say. Nor have any other dumps/leaks. Another reason information may be classified is to protect the source. It’s not always obvious from the information itself why said information is classified. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2016, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/59 "2016-11-20T13:22:06Z")
What she did is irrelevant. The Government chose to torture her with sleep deprivation, preventing suicide, and preventing her transition. What happened in that case is what removed my respect for the military entirely (thought not necessarily those who served). She won’t be pardoned, but she should be. If she were treated humanely in prison, maybe then I’d be okay with her detention, but she was not. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/60 "2016-11-20T13:54:52Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > What she did is irrelevant. The Government chose to torture her with sleep deprivation, preventing suicide, and preventing her transition. Preventing suicide is a “punishment”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003.md?page=4)