# Should President Obama pardon Chelsea Manning? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003 "2016-11-14T21:38:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/121 "2017-01-19T02:18:07Z")
Is it LEGALLY treason? There would be a little hoop-jumping on the part of the govt. They have to overcome the ‘two witness’ clause. Was the treason downloading it? Was it giving it to Wikileaks? Does he have to know it would be used to give comfort to an enemy? I would say the question would be “Would a reasonable person think it would be used to aid, abet and give comfort to an enemy.” And then we have to identify WHO that enemy is, and should that enemy be found to have received aid from the USA after the fact…seems that would be a little embarrassing for the US Govt. to have to explain in court. OR the govt can just skip all that and go with espionage. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/122 "2017-01-19T06:51:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Whether he understood what clemency meant or not, he’s still moving the goalposts. His lawyer says the commutation doesn’t satisfy his offer because Manning isn’t being released “immediately,” but immediate release was [never](http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/01/julian-assange-extradition-deal-chelsea-manning/) part of Assange’s demands. > > No mention of timing as to Manning’s release in either tweet. I take your point. I get the impression that Assange didn’t really believe that Obama would actually release Manning. I do understand Assange’s reluctance to follow through on his pledge. If the US did bring charges against him he’d be facing some pretty serious time. Although he would have a friend in the White House. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/123 "2017-01-19T07:13:20Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > I disagree with this wholeheartedly. That traitor deserved to spend more time in prison. Why would he do this? Chelsea Manning seems to me to be a scary little crazy person. (Or, maybe that’s me.) But she’s been imprisoned for several years at this point. If you’ve never been locked up yourself, you may underestimate how intense that is. You may think about Chelsea Manning maybe a few minutes a month. She has had to be there all the time. Commutation, at nearly the last possible moment, is a reasonable move for Obama here. It’s not a pardon, she’s still guilty, she’s just out a little earlier than the nominal eight-year minimum. > [@Okrahoma](#): > > That felony conviction will not matter. It will be a “badge of honor” in the eyes of a lot of people on the left. Manning is set up for life being a celebrity on the left. Well, she may manage to alienate her supporters, and I wouldn’t be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/124 "2017-01-19T07:25:54Z")
She’s not a celebrity on my left, and she also seems like the type to screw up whatever celebrity she does get. I predict she’ll be in the tabloids more that Washington Post. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/125 "2017-01-19T13:19:49Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Manning revealed battlefield reports during wartime so they could be read by the Taliban or the Iraqi insurgents. This could have put US troops in danger and exposed allies and intelligence sources and methods. That means it was harder for US troops to fight the Taliban and made it less likely that locals would trust the US. Aiding the enemy during wartime is the textbook definition of treason. Actually, that section reads “or in **adhering to their Enemies** , giving them Aid and Comfort” (my bolding). “Adhering to their enemies” means joining an enemy force, and “enemy” means “nation the US is at war with”. The US was not at war at the time of the leaks. Even if she were, Manning didn’t “adhere to the enemies” of the US. Under your rather loose definition of treason, doing anything which aided people the US were bombing, even indirectly or unintentionally (say, making a film critical of US policy in Iraq, or buying Afghani heroin) could be called treason. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/126 "2017-01-19T15:41:22Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > To be accurate, Manning gave the classified materials to Wikileaks who then actually revealed the contents. > If Assange had vetted the materials properly or didn’t feel he had the right to decide what should be secret or not, no one would have been in danger. > > Not saying that Manning didn’t deserve the charges and convictions but Assange is the one who released the materials to the world. Manning gave classified materials to Wikileaks. Wikileaks received classified materials from Manning. Manning had no authorization to give classified materials to Wikileaks. Manning admitted that he stole, and released, classified material. Manning was tried, and was convicted. You are saying that it was Wikileaks who “actually” revealed the contents. That’s an interesting distinction. The asshole Assange wouldn’t have had classified documents to release if it weren’t for the criminal actions the asshole Manning. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/127 "2017-01-19T15:50:24Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Manning gave classified materials to Wikileaks. > > Wikileaks received classified materials from Manning. > > Manning had no authorization to give classified materials to Wikileaks. > > Manning admitted that he stole, and released, classified material. > > Manning was tried, and was convicted. > > You are saying that it was Wikileaks who “actually” revealed the contents. > > **That’s an interesting distinction. The asshole Assange wouldn’t have had classified documents to release if it weren’t for the criminal actions the asshole Manning.** And that lets Assange off the hook? When Manning sent the documents to Wikileaks, Assange (or whoever) was the only one who knew the content. He’s the one who released the materials to the world. If a friend tells you a secret, are you blameless if you spread it around? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/128 "2017-01-19T16:20:20Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > And that lets Assange off the hook? > > When Manning sent the documents to Wikileaks, Assange (or whoever) was the only one who knew the content. He’s the one who released the materials to the world. > If a friend tells you a secret, are you blameless if you spread it around? If a friend tells you a secret that is not their secret, but someone else’s secret, a secret that they have sworn an oath not to divulge, are you blameless for spreading it around? No, you are not blameless. Manning released classified documents. Manning is an asshole. I have no idea why Obama would commute the sentence of Manning. Maybe the friends of Manning have pictures of Obama with naked farm animals? Maybe the FOM threatened to release more pictures of Obama wearing mom jeans? I’ve always considered the asshole, and rapist, Assange to be an asshole. There are still two women in Sweden who are still waiting for justice. The asshole Assange fled Sweden to avoid arrest, and trial. The asshole Assange then fled Britain to avoid extradition to Sweden. If the asshole Assange stays in the Ecuadorian embassy long enough, the Swedish statute of limitations for rape will run out, and the asshole Assange will then be free to prey on women, worldwide. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/129 "2017-01-19T16:34:37Z")
Assange’s whole promise just looks like a lame publicity stunt. There is no American extradition request for him to agree to, so the offer is incoherent at a base level. While I’m sure the DOJ would like to get their hands on him, it’s pretty clear that Obama doesn’t consider him a priority since there’s a lot more the US could do to get ahold of him or kill him if it was a priority. So he’s offering up a deal that doesn’t actually make sense, and even if it did that clearly isn’t worth enough to the President to affect policy decisions. Back on the thread topic, I agree with the decisions, Manning should have been convicted because what she did was clearly criminal, but the sentence was also absurdly excessive. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/130 "2017-01-19T21:36:37Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Manning released classified documents. Manning is an asshole. > > I have no idea why Obama would commute the sentence of Manning. Maybe the friends of Manning have pictures of Obama with naked farm animals? Maybe the FOM threatened to release more pictures of Obama wearing mom jeans? According to Obama, she got a more harsh sentence than similar cases. Maybe this just got more publicity and it’s Obama so it’s a bigger deal to you? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/131 "2017-01-20T01:24:39Z")
[Julian Assange STANDS BY US extradition pledge after Manning sentence commuted](http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/756429/Julian-Assange-WikiLeaks-agrees-to-go-to-US-Chelsea-Manning) ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/132 "2017-01-20T01:37:14Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > [Julian Assange STANDS BY US extradition pledge after Manning sentence commuted](http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/756429/Julian-Assange-WikiLeaks-agrees-to-go-to-US-Chelsea-Manning) But only if his “rights are respected”. I’ve got 10 bucks that says that they aren’t going to be. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/133 "2017-01-20T01:39:26Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > [Julian Assange STANDS BY US extradition pledge after Manning sentence commuted](http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/756429/Julian-Assange-WikiLeaks-agrees-to-go-to-US-Chelsea-Manning) I will make a great sacrifice by remaining free as long as Manning is in jail. I will then bravely face the very small chance the US can make a case. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/134 "2017-01-20T06:40:27Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > But only if his “rights are respected”. I’ve got 10 bucks that says that they aren’t going to be. I agree. Even if he believes he’d win the espionage case in the US, he’d then face extradition to Sweden on the rape charges. What he may do when May comes is claim that he doesn’t believe that his rights will be respected under Trump. Alternatively, he may have reason to believe that Putin will have enough control over Trump that he need not fear coming to the US. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/135 "2017-01-20T09:35:48Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Alternatively, he may have reason to believe that Putin will have enough control over Trump that he need not fear coming to the US. Oh please. This idiocy has become the Democrats’ equivalent of the birther lunacy. In both cases there is no hard evidence at all to substantiate the wildest of rumors. Still, whatever works to sully Trump, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/136 "2017-01-20T10:27:17Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Oh please. This idiocy has become the Democrats’ equivalent of the birther lunacy. In both cases there is no hard evidence at all to substantiate the wildest of rumors. Still, whatever works to sully Trump, eh? Sullying Loser Donald is the patriotic duty of any good American, so yes. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/137 "2017-01-20T10:55:02Z")
Oh please yourself. Learn to recognize tongue in cheek hyperbole. Even if Trump was that beholden to Putin, Putin wouldn’t waste that power on Assange. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/138 "2017-01-20T11:49:08Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Oh please. This idiocy has become the Democrats’ equivalent of the birther lunacy. In both cases there is no hard evidence at all to substantiate the wildest of rumors. Still, whatever works to sully Trump, eh? Considering how much time Trump spends kissing Putin’s ass, I fail to see how that’s improbable. Maybe not control in terms of threats but It’s pretty clear how to get Trump to _want_ to do what Putin wants him to do. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/139 "2017-01-20T15:36:04Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I will make a great sacrifice by remaining free as long as Manning is in jail. > > I will then bravely face the very small chance the US can make a case. Yeah, it’s interesting that he’s claiming he’ll surrender to an extradition request that doesn’t exist, but still refusing to surrender to the legitimate and existing one from Sweeden. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003/140 "2017-01-20T16:38:36Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > [Julian Assange STANDS BY US extradition pledge after Manning sentence commuted](http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/756429/Julian-Assange-WikiLeaks-agrees-to-go-to-US-Chelsea-Manning) The _Express_ chose to publish an interview from _Russia Today/RT_ where Melinda Taylor, Assange’s Lawyer, says blah, blah, blah. Given that the NSA, CIA, and FBI (why weren’t the other members of the Whitehouse claimed 17 agencies included?) have recently released a 25 page report stating that _Russia Today/RT_ is a leading purveyor of misleading and fake news, I wonder why the _Express_ would chose to help _Russia Today/RT_ spread propaganda and horseshit? I would hope that there are other, more trustworthy, news organizations available? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-president-obama-pardon-chelsea-manning/772003.md?page=8)