You and I will be picking at this one a long time(*). To the public out there *everything *that prevents someone from rotting in prison is a “pardon”. I’m fighting the same fight in my own IRL community WRT the clemency for our local cause celèbre (“no, this does NOT mean anyone’s admitting his conviction was wrong, it just means they feel he has had enough”).
(*and also at that Manning was never charged or convicted of *treason *either)
Totally shocked he decided to move the goalposts instead.
Really, Manning had access to information that required that.
Or were they moved to make it seem so. It’s not like the military had a vested reason to have Manning made an example of.
To the treason crowd: what - SPECIFICALLY, was the worst thing Manning did?
JAG auditors have the clearance … and an explicit need to know … what makes anyone think stamping the page “top secret” keeps it buried forever … we had a stiff from Langley come in once a year and he went through everything … we couldn’t even hide a dollar bill in those safes no matter how sensitive the contents were … it would be found pretty quickly and we’d lose a stripe …
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Any who … I’ve completely changed my opinion in this matter … I started reading this thread thinking “let the bitch rot” … but many here have made a compelling case to think otherwise … if we’re sufficiently confident she’ll not be committing any more crimes … then cut her loose, with the DD … that’s a felony conviction that will follow her the rest of her life …
Actually, from the explanation, I see the goalpost squarely where it was.
Assange promised agreement to extradition in return for clemency for Manning. Clemency didn’t happen. What goalpost do you consider moved?
That felony conviction will not matter. It will be a “badge of honor” in the eyes of a lot of people on the left. Manning is set up for life being a celebrity on the left.
Commutation is indeed “clemency”.
*"Clemency under the criminal justice system is the act by an executive member of government of extending mercy to a convicted individual. In the United States, clemency is granted by a governor for state crimes and by a president for federal crimes. Clemency can take one of three forms: a reprieve, a commutation of sentence, or a pardon.
Reprieves
A reprieve is given to suspend the execution of a sentence in order to give the prisoner time to find ways to have it reduced. With respect to capital cases, a reprieve is given to suspend the execution of the death penalty for a period of time to consider whether or not it should be imposed.
Commuting a Sentence
A commutation of sentence takes place when the sentence, generally one of imprisonment, is reduced to a lesser penalty or jail term. This type of clemency does not void the conviction.
Pardons…"*
I see. I considered clemency to be a pardon only. My mistake.
Manning revealed battlefield reports during wartime so they could be read by the Taliban or the Iraqi insurgents. This could have put US troops in danger and exposed allies and intelligence sources and methods. That means it was harder for US troops to fight the Taliban and made it less likely that locals would trust the US. Aiding the enemy during wartime is the textbook definition of treason.
Funny she wasn’t charged with treason, then.
You’re quite right. But the only relevant factor in deciding whether goalposts were moved is what Assange understood by clemency. I think it quite probable that he what he meant by it was a full pardon. He isn’t a lawyer and might well, as Okrahoma, be unaware of the legal definition.
To be accurate, Manning gave the classified materials to Wikileaks who then actually revealed the contents.
If Assange had vetted the materials properly or didn’t feel he had the right to decide what should be secret or not, no one would have been in danger.
Not saying that Manning didn’t deserve the charges and convictions but Assange is the one who released the materials to the world.
Whether he understood what clemency meant or not, he’s still moving the goalposts. His lawyer says the commutation doesn’t satisfy his offer because Manning isn’t being released “immediately,” but immediate release was never part of Assange’s demands.
No mention of timing as to Manning’s release in either tweet.
If it’s a textbook definition, then can you cite even one case of someone charged with and convicted of treason for doing what Manning did?
She was convicted for violations of the espionage act, among other things. I don’t see a big difference between treason and espionage.
For one, espionage can be done by someone not a citizen.
It can get you the death penalty. I don’t see it as significantly less bad than treason.
this may be the first time I’ve not detected a political bias on a subject.
Normally I think the left would embrace Snowden, and Manning and Assange.
But with Assange helping Trump, the matter has become very cloudy.
I’m sure that you’d consider me to be on the left and I’ve been at best ambivalent about all three since before we even knew that Trump was running.
That’s not a very good argument since a non-citizen can commit treason as well. I don’t think Ms. Manning committed treason, and I agree with the President’s decision to commute her sentence. Since it’s not effective until May I am a little worried that the Trump administration will way to rescind it or otherwise keep her in prison.