# Should private businesses be allowed to discriminate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529 "2015-07-08T00:03:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/201 "2015-07-09T18:55:56Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > This all comes from that story somewhere in the gospels where Jesus condemned a Jewish businessman to hell for doing business with the Romans. What!!!:eek::eek::eek: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/202 "2015-07-09T18:59:46Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > :smack::smack::smack::smack: > > No, no one can force them to carry any products that they would not normally carry. If they want to only make chocolate Jesus cakes, that’s their prerogative. > > But if a Satanist walks in the door and wants a chocolate Jesus cake, they should sell her one. Chances are, they would. I’ve never had anyone at a bakery ask me about my religious beliefs before selling me baked goods. The post I was responding to was much broader than what you are saying here. it basically amounted to: if you are going to sell cakes, how can you object to selling cakes. It seems like you agree that you have at some control over what you offer for sale to the public based on content and perhaps even context. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/203 "2015-07-09T19:01:35Z")
> [@Uncle\_Jocko](#): > > Sexual orientation is not a protected class everywhere, that’s true. But it _is_ a protected class in some states and localities. > > As I understand it, that was the issue with the Oregon bakery that is facing the $135,000 fine/judgement for refusing a cake to a lesbian couple. Sexual orientation is protected in Oregon; the bakery broke the law. > > (They also showed their true “Christian” colors by publicizing the couple’s names and address on social media, encouraging like-minded “Christians” to harass them for their sinful ways. Which is exactly what Jesus would do if he ran a bakery, I guess.) In those states where it is a protected class, your religious objections do not overcome the rights of the gay couple. Everywhere else, it does (at least for now). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/204 "2015-07-09T19:03:56Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I can’t believe that passed!!! This is supposed to be a democracy, not a theocracy. Religion should have no influence on the law. The word religion is in the constitution. Its in the first sentence of the bill of rights. It is the first right that is protected in the bill of rights. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/205 "2015-07-09T19:04:35Z")
Oh, for fuck’s sake, there is so much ignorance in this thread, starting with this flaming turd [QUOTE=construct] Gay people already cost straight people about 100K (per gay person) in lifetime HIV costs. [/QUOTE] Not only is this ridiculous, it is not even logical. There is no clear indicator for how many people in this country are gay, so how could there be a per person metric? Nor is there any thing except blatant bigotry that would indicate that each gay person in the country has HIV. But go ahead and try to justify this with a cite. I dare you. > [@](#): > > And thanks to Obamacare, those costs are born by the population at large—that is, straight people. You really have no clue how the ACA operates, do you? [QUOTE=cornopean] I think…how much longer before society decides to make me do something that I don’t want to do? If you think it’s just bakers, hang on. It will be you tomorrow. [/QUOTE] You mean, like pay taxes? Welcome to the U.S.A. We have laws to compel people to act, or not act, because asking nicely doesn’t work so well. You, as a (nominal) Christian, should respect that, given the precept of Romans 13:1, which says “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities…” [QUOTE=ITR Champion] Within living memory, businesses were required by law to discriminate against Blacks in many places. (And against Hispanics too, though that’s not as widely remembered.) Even in places where racial segregation was not required by law, the police often lead or encouraged violence against any integrated business. The moral of the Jim Crow era is “government sucks”. The Jim Crow era cannot return unless government re-institutes it. [/QUOTE] Do you have a cite for this canard that businesses tried to legally integrate in the Jim Crow era and were forcibly denied that opportunity by the police? [QUOTE=John Mace] I don’t think that “systemic discrimination practiced in this country within living memory” would be sustainable given the internet. [/QUOTE] Are you of the opinion that systematic racial discrimination was practiced in secret? > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You failed to answer the question. Why would anyone go through the trouble and expense of a lawsuit over a cake? > > Anyway, why wasn’t the lawsuit dismissed as de minimis? What harm did the plaintiffs suffer? > > After a google search, I notice that these complaints are often brought before such things as the “Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries”. Mid-level bureaucrats are making these decisions, not actual judges, which explains a lot. I am assuming that you are talking about the store Sweet Cakes by Melissa, which had been opened in Oregon (and has now moved online). Somehow, you googled it, but you remain ignorant of what happened. First, the gay couple didn’t sue the bakery. They filed a complaint with the Oregon department of Justice, since this was a violation of a law on Oregon’s books. In response, the DOJ sent a letter to the bakers, asking for a response. Rather than do so, the bakers took to the internet to complain, including by posting the letter. They did not redact the complainant’s names or home address, and the complainants became victims of death threats and harassment. This is what the gay couple suffered - extreme harassment, which the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industry cited as foreseeable results of the baker’s conduct. As a result, the couple were awarded damages totaling $135,000.00. While that might seem like a lot, the same Bureau noted that it was in line with its other fines, such as the award of $325,000.00 to a Christian employee for suffering incurred due to religious harassment. From the ruling: “The Agency’s theory of liability is that since Respondents brought the case to the media’s attention and kept it there by repeatedly appearing in public to make statements deriding Complainants, it was foreseeable that this attention would negatively impact Complainants, making Respondents liable for any resultant emotional suffering experienced by Complainants. The Agency also argues that Respondents are liable for negative third party social media directed at Complainants because it was a foreseeable consequence of media attention.” … In response to the OP, in general businesses do have the right to discriminate. They can refuse service to someone who won’t pay their prices. If someone comes into the store screaming, yelling, and being belligerent, they can tell them to leave. If someone seeks to do business who reeks because he hasn’t showered in three weeks, they don’t need to accommodate him. What the business can’t do is discriminate on the basis of a classification that is protected by law. Historically, the protected class has been race; gender, national origin, religion, and physical handicap have also been added. But some jurisdictions have gone even further to include sexual orientation. The rationale is because - like these other categories - these characteristics are immutable or (as with religion, or, perhaps, sexual preference) a choice that is indispensable to one’s identity. In other words, these things don’t change, and these places have decided that it is unfair and wrong to allow people to be refused service because of who they are (as opposed to what they do). But what about when religion and sexual orientation clash, you ask? Well, in the case of Oregon, there is an exception in the public accommodations law for religious institutions (i.e. churches). But, more generally, it’s simply a fallacy that Christianity prohibits a person from refusing service to someone because they are gay. Even if you accept the Christian belief that being gay is a sin (just like eating lobster, or shaving your beard, or wearing polyester), there is no prohibition against interacting with a sinner. If anything, it’s the opposite - you are supposed to leave the judgment to God and embrace them as being like family. So, there is no challenging choice here. If you open a business, you are required to follow the laws of where the business operates. And if you want to claim that your religion prevents you from following those laws, it seems to me that you need to 1) identify where in your religion it says that (it’s certainly not in anything that Jesus said, and it’s not referenced in the 10 commandments), and 2) demonstrate that you are not cherry-picking religious tenets to justify some other reason for your discrimination (i.e. you’re a bigot). These “persecuted” Christians can do neither. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/206 "2015-07-09T19:05:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > In those states where it is a protected class, your religious objections do not overcome the rights of the gay couple. Everywhere else, it does (at least for now). But why should your religious objections matter? We live in a a country that supposedly has separation of church and state. And now you are saying religious thought should influence public policy. How is that possible if we have separation of church and state? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/207 "2015-07-09T19:06:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The word religion is in the constitution. Its in the first sentence of the bill of rights. It is the first right that is protected in the bill of rights. Yes, for you to practice your religion the way you want. That does not give you the right to tell other people what to do or to discriminate against them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/208 "2015-07-09T19:06:21Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > And when they do I guess you’ll be really really really unhappy Why would I be unhappy? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/209 "2015-07-09T19:08:34Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes, for you to practice your religion the way you want. That does not give you the right to tell other people what to do or to discriminate against them. Unfortunately it does. As long as it does not contradict more fundamental rights, I am free to exercise my religion and the government cannot tell me otherwise. Freedom of religion is NOT freedom FROM religion at least not from private parties. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/210 "2015-07-09T19:11:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Unfortunately it does. As long as it does not contradict more fundamental rights, I am free to exercise my religion and the government cannot tell me otherwise. Freedom of religion is NOT freedom FROM religion at least not from private parties. A business is not a private party. If you won’t let a gay person come in your home, fine, you don’t have to. But if you have a business you can’t refuse to serve them. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/211 "2015-07-09T19:37:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > As long as it does not contradict more fundamental rights, I am free to exercise my religion and the government cannot tell me otherwise. Who defines your “religion”? If you claim to be a Christian, does your religion mean what your local church leader tells you, even if the bible says otherwise? If you are Catholic, is your religion whatever the Pope commands? Can me and my friends, when we get together on a Saturday night and imbibe while solving the world’s problems, consider ourselves a religion, and thereby become exempt from most laws that we disagree with? Or do we need to apply for, and obtain, tax exempt status? Do you draw lines between a religion and a cult, and if so, how? I ask sincerely, because I think that this effort to protect “religious liberty” leads to all sorts of questions that I can’t answer for myself. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/212 "2015-07-09T19:43:50Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > And if you want to claim that your religion prevents you from following those laws, it seems to me that you need to 1) identify where in your religion it says that (it’s certainly not in anything that Jesus said, and it’s not referenced in the 10 commandments), and 2) demonstrate that you are not cherry-picking religious tenets to justify some other reason for your discrimination (i.e. you’re a bigot). > > These “persecuted” Christians can do neither. You really want the government to make theological rulings in court, about how to correctly interpret the Bible (or other religious text, creed, or tradition)? That sounds like a cure far worse than the disease. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/213 "2015-07-09T19:51:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So there is a bakery nearby called the new Canaan Bakery. The owners are deeply religious and there are crosses and scripture all over the bakery. Can they be forced to make a cake celebrating Satan? Nope. But they also can’t refuse to sell one of their “Sermon on the Mount” cakes to a Satanist. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/214 "2015-07-09T19:52:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Race is a protected class. Sexual orientation is not a protected class. Nationally, no. But in some states, it is. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/215 "2015-07-09T19:56:50Z")
> [@Uncle\_Jocko](#): > > Sexual orientation is not a protected class everywhere, that’s true. But it _is_ a protected class in some states and localities. > > As I understand it, that was the issue with the Oregon bakery that is facing the $135,000 fine/judgement for refusing a cake to a lesbian couple. Sexual orientation is protected in Oregon; the bakery broke the law. > > (They also showed their true “Christian” colors by publicizing the couple’s names and address on social media, encouraging like-minded “Christians” to harass them for their sinful ways. Which is exactly what Jesus would do if he ran a bakery, I guess.) As a carpenter, He instead built all their chairs with one leg shorter than the others. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/216 "2015-07-09T19:56:59Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You really want the government to make theological rulings in court, about how to correctly interpret the Bible (or other religious text, creed, or tradition)? That sounds like a cure far worse than the disease. It’s an ugly issue both ways. Take military cemetery headstones, with religious symbols. The military must have a list of “permitted” symbols, and that puts the government in the nasty position of saying to some, “No, that isn’t a real religion.” It’s going to be a while, I think, before military cemetery headstones will have symbols for Jedi Knights, Pastafarians, followers of the IPU, or the Church of Red Sonja (Topless Moiety.) Similarly, I think, if people are going to be foolish enough to file lawsuits demanding relief on religious grounds, we need to know: what is a legitimate religious ground? This is why **Moriarty** suggests it leads to all kinds of unanswerable questions. If the baker can discriminate against gays, why not against blacks, Jews, women, Catholics, Russians, or people in wheelchairs? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/217 "2015-07-09T20:12:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You really want the government to make theological rulings in court, about how to correctly interpret the Bible (or other religious text, creed, or tradition)? That sounds like a cure far worse than the disease. If we open the door to allowing “religion” to be a basis to act differently than what the law generally compels, we need some metric to determine when religion applies. Otherwise, couldn’t anybody claim that they act according to their “religion” whenever they don’t want to do something? (Pay property taxes? My religion forbids making tribute to anybody but God). I was trying to think of the most non-invasive way to make this determination. I freely admit that it is not easy. I thought of a two-part test: 1) does a religion actually say what you are claiming? 2) Are you authentically practicing that religion? But even that is fraught with peril, as my later questions demonstrate. How do we determine what the religion says (the religious text? Any religious leader? Whatever the practitioner sincerely believes?)? And how do we determine if a person is an adherent? How do we even determine what constitutes a religion? [QUOTE=Trinopus] Similarly, I think, if people are going to be foolish enough to file lawsuits demanding relief on religious grounds, we need to know: what is a legitimate religious ground? This is why Moriarty suggests it leads to all kinds of unanswerable questions. [/QUOTE] Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/218 "2015-07-09T20:39:19Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > A business is not a private party. If you won’t let a gay person come in your home, fine, you don’t have to. But if you have a business you can’t refuse to serve them. In many places I can in fact refuse to serve them. They are not a protected class. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/219 "2015-07-09T20:41:56Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Who defines your “religion”? If you claim to be a Christian, does your religion mean what your local church leader tells you, even if the bible says otherwise? If you are Catholic, is your religion whatever the Pope commands? Can me and my friends, when we get together on a Saturday night and imbibe while solving the world’s problems, consider ourselves a religion, and thereby become exempt from most laws that we disagree with? Or do we need to apply for, and obtain, tax exempt status? Do you draw lines between a religion and a cult, and if so, how? > > I ask sincerely, because I think that this effort to protect “religious liberty” leads to all sorts of questions that I can’t answer for myself. I don’t know. There are all sorts of areas where the law is fuzzy and how to determine “sincerely held religious beliefs” is one of those areas. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/220 "2015-07-09T20:43:10Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Nope. But they also can’t refuse to sell one of their “Sermon on the Mount” cakes to a Satanist. well, that was a bad example because religion is a protected class. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=12)