# Should private businesses be allowed to discriminate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529 "2015-07-08T00:03:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/241 "2015-07-10T01:58:12Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As a libertarian, I’m all in favor of almost all attempts to harass the government, whether they be serious or frivolous. But the Constitution has protected freedom of religion for over two centuries without getting terribly bogged down by unanswerable questions. Yeah, I hate roads and schools too. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Virtually all conflicts between government power-grabbers and free exercise of religion result from the government’s desire for control over us. Whether it’s Sikhs wanting to wear turbans, Muslims wanting beards, Christians wanting to not serve in the military, or Jews wanting children to drink wine, it could be solved easily. Just let everyone do it, regardless of religious beliefs. Problem solved. In _Employment Division v Smith_ which ultimately led to the RFRA, it was the opinion of Justice Scalia that “To permit [a person to use a religion as a reason not to obey the law] would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself.” The case had something to do with the use of Peyote (which is an illegal substance) during religious ceremonies. Now according to your logic: as a member of a Thuggee death cult I should be free to rip out someone’s heart and cook them in a volcano because that is part of my worship of Kali. So obviously there is still a line somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/242 "2015-07-10T01:59:11Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > A But a gay couple was free to order wedding cakes, photography, or anything else **from any business willing to sell**. And to be denied by any company unwilling. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > So which was better: the government or the market? I am not sure why you brought this up, but it hardly demonstrates any point that you have made, previously. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/243 "2015-07-10T01:59:42Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Huh? What pressure is Hobby Lobby putting on anyone? Nothing that Hobby Lobby does affects anybody who doesn’t choose to work or shop there. Your assertion is ridiculous. How is it “ridiculous”? Exactly the same statement could be made about a business with a “whites only” sign in front. Or a more subtle homophobia. And people may “choose” to work there maybe because it’s the first and only job offer they received in the past five years – most people in that employment tier are not exactly flooded with job offers and they may have a family to support. And they may also have “chosen” to work there under the reasonable assumption that the owners were sane normal people and not religious nutcases. > [@Robert163](#): > > what if the owner of hobby lobby decides all you need to do to get better is pray and they want to discontinue all medical coverage? That, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/244 "2015-07-10T02:00:18Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Where did you get that impression ? > > Currently, we are going beyond the pale to ‘protect’ religioous followers from having to do the things it should just do in the secular marketplace - we’re allowing it - in cases like Hobby Lobby, etc - to put undo pressure on people that may not believe the way the ‘owner’ does in the name of “protecting” that persons “faith”. > > As for your hiring practices, I would hope that the considerateion on that aspect would be due to a direct conflict in the job responsibilities with the person’s ‘faith’ - I would no more hire a muslim to slaughter pigs or a catholic at a trojan factory unless I was assured, by the individual, that they would be able to do the job in question. > > A person’s relgious belief should not even be a consideration except under the umbrella of a generic question of - > > “The job you are applying for will include X, do you have any reasons that you may not be able to do X?” > > If its not clear to you by now - I have no issues hiring anyone of any faith - as long as they are willing to do the job they are hired for - which may include keeping thier “faith” to themselves. You said you didn’t think that “religion” should be a “protected class” . If religion is not a “protected class” then they aren’t covered by anti-discrimination laws. If I’m a pizzeria owner and I have a pathological hatred of say car salesmen I can refuse to either hire people who used to work as car salesmen or deliver pizzas to a car dealerships because that isn’t a protected class. If I’m a pizzeria owner and I have a strong aversion to practicing Catholics I can’t refuse to hire them or deliver pizzas to Catholic groups because “religious groups” are a “protected class”. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/245 "2015-07-10T02:02:18Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Reality is that we shouldnt even have to have “protected classes” of people - its a ridiculas mindset that only propogates division and the in-equality that is already faced. It’s not the group of people who are the protected class. It’s the characteristic that is protected. IOW, you don’t get special treatment for being black, gay, Christian or a woman. That just can’t be the reason you get fired or refused service. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/246 "2015-07-10T02:22:20Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Now according to your logic: as a member of a Thuggee death cult I should be free to rip out someone’s heart and cook them in a volcano because that is part of my worship of Kali. So obviously there is still a line somewhere. I don’t recall saying that, or anything that would logically lead to that. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/247 "2015-07-10T02:25:50Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > what if the owner of hobby lobby decides all you need to do to get better is pray and they want to discontinue all medical coverage? That wouldn’t affect me, since I don’t work at Hobby Lobby. If a company chose to discontinue buying health insurance for its employees, the employees could buy individual health insurance plans. Indeed, under Obamacare, they would be required by law to do so. Anything else obvious that you’d like me to explain? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/248 "2015-07-10T02:29:28Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > That wouldn’t affect me, since I don’t work at Hobby Lobby. > > If a company chose to discontinue buying health insurance for its employees, the employees could buy individual health insurance plans. Indeed, under Obamacare, they would be required by law to do so. Anything else obvious that you’d like me to explain? So it would seem to me no matter how badly an employer will treat an employee, you will defend the employer? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/249 "2015-07-10T02:43:20Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > If a company chose to discontinue buying health insurance for its employees, the employees could buy individual health insurance plans. Indeed, under Obamacare, they would be required by law to do so. Anything else obvious that you’d like me to explain? Yes, you could explain the relative costs and affordability of employer-subsidized group insurance vs. individual insurance. This is exactly the same logic as saying “employer abusing you? Violating your civil rights? Meh, just walk across the street and get another job! If that one sucks, too, just walk next door and get hired again. What could possibly be the problem with that?” > [@Robert163](#): > > So it would seem to me no matter how badly an employer will treat an employee, you will defend the employer? I believe it’s the First Republican Commandment. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/250 "2015-07-10T03:07:41Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > . . . Anyone who works at Hobby Lobby has chosen to work at Hobby Lobby. Anyone who lives in the ghetto has chosen to live in the ghetto. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/251 "2015-07-10T03:09:05Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > . . . Now according to your logic: as a member of a Thuggee death cult I should be free to rip out someone’s heart and cook them in a volcano because that is part of my worship of Kali. So obviously there is still a line somewhere. Compadre! I, too, have made the Kali cultist argument! Now there are two of us, so we form a legitimate denomination! Jhirnee! ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/252 "2015-07-10T03:29:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You said you didn’t think that “religion” should be a “protected class” . > > If religion is not a “protected class” then they aren’t covered by anti-discrimination laws. > > If I’m a pizzeria owner and I have a pathological hatred of say car salesmen I can refuse to either hire people who used to work as car salesmen or deliver pizzas to a car dealerships because that isn’t a protected class. > > If I’m a pizzeria owner and I have a strong aversion to practicing Catholics I can’t refuse to hire them or deliver pizzas to Catholic groups because “religious groups” are a “protected class”. I’m clearly not being clear enough. Individuals should not be discriminated against for any reason - religious beliefs being one of them. I also firmly believe that YOUR religious beliefs are YOURS and that you have no “right” to impose your beliefs on your employees or your employer and that if you are running a public business or working in a public accommodation, there may be times you need to check your beliefs at the time clock. if you can’t do that- you may need to consider a different line of work - we all make these choices every single day. What I mean that ‘religion’ should not be a protected class - I am not referring to the individual’s protection against discrimination - I am referring to the employer (or Gvt) using that protection to impose their beliefs, which I feel is happening more and more these days. Hopefully that clears it up. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/253 "2015-07-10T03:40:45Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Not in all locations. In certain small towns it might become very popular to “not do business with illegals”. Really? We now have to do business with criminals? What part of “illegal” did you think was protected under the law? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/254 "2015-07-10T03:43:38Z")
> [@simster](#): > > I’m clearly not being clear enough. > > Individuals should not be discriminated against for any reason - religious beliefs being one of them. So then I can’t refuse to hire someone because I think they’re an asshole or that they’re stupid? I ask because if you’re serious about your claim that nobody should be “discriminated against for any reason” then yes I shouldn’t be allowed to discriminate against people who are stupid or people who are assholes. Respectfully, I think you took a position without thinking it through and also don’t seem to understand actually how anti-discrimination laws work or the rationale behind them. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/255 "2015-07-10T03:47:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Really? We now have to do business with criminals? What part of “illegal” did you think was protected under the law? How do you determine who’s “Illegal” ? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/256 "2015-07-10T03:51:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then I can’t refuse to hire someone because I think they’re an asshole or that they’re stupid? > > I ask because if you’re serious about your claim that nobody should be “discriminated against for any reason” then yes I shouldn’t be allowed to discriminate against people who are stupid or people who are assholes. > > Respectfully, I think you took a position without thinking it through and also don’t seem to understand actually how anti-discrimination laws work or the rationale behind them. Respectfully, I think you’re looking for gotchas - You know full well what is being refereed to by the statement. Have a pleasant day. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/257 "2015-07-10T04:19:03Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So it would seem to me no matter how badly an employer will treat an employee, you will defend the employer? Have I ever said that? I’m pretty sure I have not. I support reasonable laws governing the workplace concerning such as issues as physical safety and health and protection from sexual harassment and violence. Physical dangers, harassment, and violence are actually bad for employees. But buying health insurance for your employees that doesn’t cover all forms of birth control is not bad for employees. Neither is choosing not to buy health insurance at all. I will also point out the obvious once again: anyone who doesn’t like an employer’s health insurance options is free to not take a job with that employer. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/258 "2015-07-10T04:24:37Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I will also point out the obvious once again: anyone who doesn’t like an employer’s health insurance options is free to not take a job with that employer. And if they can’t find a better job elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/259 "2015-07-10T04:33:23Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > It’s not a lawsuit over a cake; it’s a lawsuit over a civil tort. Yes, in Oregon. Thankfully, most of us don’t live there. Of course, Oregon is free to enact whatever goofy laws they like, and even to hire bureaucrats to try and enforce them. Shrug. Some people are trying to make like there’s some sort of constitutionally protected civil right to gay wedding cakes, and there is not. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/260 "2015-07-10T04:37:29Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Ok: > > I own (for the sake of this example) Dollar General. I decide that no female employee or customer is allowed to speak in one of my stores or to question the actions or orders of a man. Because, the bible says a woman is not supposed to speak in church and she is not to teach nor contradict a man. Do you support my right to do this? I asked a similar question in one of the numerous threads on this topic but I phrased it as: Can I legally prevent menstruating women (both workers and potential customers) from being inside my store as they are unclean? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=14)