# Should private businesses be allowed to discriminate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529 "2015-07-08T00:03:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/321 "2015-07-13T21:54:30Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I understand the harm of alienation and stigmatization that might occur if there was widespread discrimination against homosexuals by businesses. Its a stigmatization that occurs in other contexts related to overweight. But other than this stigmatization, How is the the shopkeeper harming others by refusing to sell a wedding cake (while still being perfectly willing to sell a cheese cake). What is wrong with the back of the bus if it arrives at the same destination as the front of the bus? What is wrong with having to use the back door if you get served the same food? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/322 "2015-07-13T21:55:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > . . . Is religion something that should be kept in places of worship and not affect the real world outside of places of worship? Your right to swing your arms stops where my nose begins. Sure, you can practice your religion publicly. But you can’t use it to harm others. The problem here is that a certain small minority of religious bigots wants desperately to be able to use their religion to harm others. They’re play-acting that it comes from a libertarian ideal – a business owner should have the right to decide how he wants to do business. But that’s just a fig-leaf. They want to drive gays out of the businessplace, the workplace, housing, employment, education, and existence. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/323 "2015-07-13T22:03:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The New Jersey case involved a beachfront event venue that was generally rented out to anyone without question, including non-Christians. It was a classic public accommodation that merely happened to be operated by a church for profit. > > In general, however, I think nearly all of us would agree that churches cannot be required to host same-sex weddings or perform them. So there is a church near me that rents out its sanctuary for weddings for non-congregants (I don’t even think they require that the wedding be religious). Should they be required to make the sanctuary available to gay weddings if they make it available to straight weddings? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/324 "2015-07-13T22:04:04Z")
Here’s the problem I have. Let’s say I believe homosexuality is a sin. How does making a cake for a SSM translate into ME violating MY religious beliefs? The other issue I have is how religious beliefs are practiced inconsistently. If divorce is a sin, then do bakers refuse to bake a cake if someone remarries? Have the bakers ever practiced pre-marital sex? etc. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/325 "2015-07-13T22:06:08Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > I don’t see that it matters WHY they felt that way. Breaking the law because of their “sincere religious belief” isn’t any more of an excuse than a couple of atheists breaking the same law because they just hate gay people. Hobby Lobby was breaking the law. It mattered that they were doing so based on their religious beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/326 "2015-07-13T22:09:03Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > OK, OK. I understand that my position would not have worked very well in 1900 or 1950, etc. But in these modern times I think that the free-market would work better than the government going to a bakery or a trophy shop and saying “You agreed to make a cake/trophy for that one customer, so now you have to make any cake/trophy that anyone requests, no matter what.” What about “these modern times” makes you think that the free market would work any better now than it did then? Are human beings a different animal? Is the free market somehow different? Have you noticed the battles we’ve been having in this country of late? There are obviously still plenty of people willing to discriminate and plenty of people who will support their doing so. The only reason things are different these days is because of government intervention. Do away with that intervention and it’ll be 1950 again but with color TV, cell phones, MP3s and the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/327 "2015-07-13T22:13:00Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Because it’s their job. And how is that unfair? It really sounds like some people just want to punish religious bigots for being religious bigots even if their actions have no real impact on anything. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/328 "2015-07-13T22:15:32Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Nailed it. Then you are going to need an amendment to the constitution modifying the free exercise clause. Constitutionally speaking, religion is not just some silly woo that we tolerate so long as it doesn’t affect anything. Religious freedom is a fundamental constitutional principle. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/329 "2015-07-13T22:17:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And how is that unfair? It really sounds like some people just want to punish religious bigots for being religious bigots even if their actions have no real impact on anything. Except for the fact that there is real impact on peoples lives by religious bigots refusing to follow the law when it comes to public accommodations, other than the entire point of debate here you are right… ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/330 "2015-07-13T22:19:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yes, otherwise you’d have to hire a shitload of clerks to cover for those that hate gay couples, those that hate African-American couples, those that hate Jewish couples, those that hate atheist couples etc. > Since when is bigotry a recognized handicap that the government must compensate for? Reasonable accommodation must be made, if they cannot be made then the clerk is out of luck and can be fired. States on the other hand are absolutely obligated to provide those marriage licenses so if they can’t figure out how to make it work, they will have to fire those clerks and hire new ones. If they choose to just hire an extra shift of clerks then thats fine too. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/331 "2015-07-13T22:21:49Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > No one is arguing you can’t legally refuse service to gays in states that don’t have sexual orientation as a protected class. > > In the specific instances where this has come up sexual orientation was a protected class and the bakers broke that law. > > In states where it’s against the law to refuse service, they are breaking the law when they refuse service. I suspect most of those states also have constitutions that protect freedom of religion. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/332 "2015-07-13T22:25:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What is wrong with the back of the bus if it arrives at the same destination as the front of the bus? What is wrong with having to use the back door if you get served the same food? Because the law does not require bakers to refuse to sell gay wedding cakes, sitting nin the back of the bus was required by law. It is a private business exercising their prerogative as a private business. Prior to the civil rights act, if a private bus company decided that they would only take black passengers if they sat in the back of the bus, then I don’t know what sort of standing the black passenger has in court. Civil rights are not just the natural result of the passage of time and the application of the constitution. It is the result of a lot of people getting off their ass to push for change in how people treat each other. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/333 "2015-07-13T22:27:58Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Religious freedom is a fundamental constitutional principle. Equal protection under the law is also a fundamental constitutional principle. There is conflict here no doubt. What benefit is there to allowing bigotry on religious grounds? Why should we choose the 1st amendment over the 14th? If we choose the 1st over the 14th the injured parties are thousands of people who must endure discrimination. If we choose the 14th over the injured party is a minority of bigots who are using religion to justify bigotry. If religious bigots are going to force the country to chose they are in my opinion going to be rather unhappy with the results. Keep forcing the issue and I expect you’ll see religious liberties lose their elevated status in law. They thought they had this nailed down, restricting gays from being able to marry, want to roll the dice again? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/334 "2015-07-13T22:28:56Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Your right to swing your arms stops where my nose begins. Sure, you can practice your religion publicly. But you can’t use it to harm others. > > The problem here is that a certain small minority of religious bigots wants desperately to be able to use their religion to harm others. They’re play-acting that it comes from a libertarian ideal – a business owner should have the right to decide how he wants to do business. But that’s just a fig-leaf. They want to drive gays out of the businessplace, the workplace, housing, employment, education, and existence. I don’t believe these religious bigots are libertarian or even pretending to be. These religious bigots are simply religious bigots and would be happy to use government to force others to observe their religious beliefs if they could get away with it. The reason they are so afraid of something as unlikely as the imposition of Sharia law is because they would have us all ruled by their religious laws if they could. So you may hate them but you may not discriminate against them because of their religion while they may discriminate against homosexuals because of their homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/335 "2015-07-13T22:30:14Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Here’s the problem I have. Let’s say I believe homosexuality is a sin. How does making a cake for a SSM translate into ME violating MY religious beliefs? I think they see it as “aiding and abetting” > [@](#): > > The other issue I have is how religious beliefs are practiced inconsistently. If divorce is a sin, then do bakers refuse to bake a cake if someone remarries? Have the bakers ever practiced pre-marital sex? etc. Hypocrisy is rampant everywhere, not just amongst the religious. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/336 "2015-07-13T22:36:02Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Except for the fact that there is real impact on peoples lives by religious bigots refusing to follow the law when it comes to public accommodations, other than the entire point of debate here you are right… There is a lot of question about whether or not it is against the law. Freedom of religion is a constitutional principle in every state I can think of. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/337 "2015-07-13T22:45:19Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Equal protection under the law is also a fundamental constitutional principle What does equal protection have to do with the activities of a private business? > [@](#): > > There is conflict here no doubt. What benefit is there to allowing bigotry on religious grounds? Why should we choose the 1st amendment over the 14th? If we choose the 1st over the 14th the injured parties are thousands of people who must endure discrimination. If we choose the 14th over the injured party is a minority of bigots who are using religion to justify bigotry. 14th amendment has to do with (in part) equal protection: " nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." The bakery is not a state. So the 14th amendment really doesn’t apply to wedding cakes as it might apply to marriage licenses. > [@](#): > > If religious bigots are going to force the country to chose they are in my opinion going to be rather unhappy with the results. Keep forcing the issue and I expect you’ll see religious liberties lose their elevated status in law. HIGHLY doubtful. Just because mainstream Americans are open to gay marriage despite the protests of the fundamentalists doesn’t mean they are ready to throw religious freedom under the truck. Religious freedom is enshrined in the constitution in a way that things like abortion and state paid legal counsel are not. > [@](#): > > They thought they had this nailed down, restricting gays from being able to marry, want to roll the dice again? I wouldn’t get overconfident. When a state infringes on the rights of a citizen, the constitution can prefer one over the other. Its a much closer call when its one citizen’s rights against another citizen’s rights. I would suggest that the religious bigots have constitutional language to support them, what do you have in this battle of the rights? ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/338 "2015-07-13T23:04:54Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > I have always felt that if a business owner wanted to discriminate, that should be their right. I think that people should be able to choose who they want to do business with, and if I have a particular talent that I sell, I should be able to choose who I perform that talent for or who I make something for. (Private practice) lawyers get to choose their clients, don’t they? > > Obviously the government cannot discriminate, but I feel that private businesses should be able to choose who they serve. If Phelps Bakers refuses to make a gay cake, then people can go to their prefered social media site and say “Phelps Bakers discriminates against gays! If you support equal rights, please go to Rainbow Bakers instead!!!” … and vice-versa. I feel that this is something that the free market can and should handle. > > I was planning on first asking if private businesses COULD, before debating the SHOULD, but the story seems to indicate that businesses are getting in trouble for refusing to make a same-sex marriage cake. I don’t understand why this couple didn’t just find a more gay-friendly baker, and then tell everybody what jerks the homophobic bakers were being. [Religious Beliefs, Gay Rights Clash in Colorado Court Case Over Cake](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/religious-beliefs-gay-rights-clash-court-case-over-cake-n388191) > > This was inspired by a FB debate by some Christians who claimed that the SCOTUS ruling on same-sex marriage was going to force them to go against their religion. I pointed out that they would not be forced into a gay marriage, and they brought up the cake thing. I said that I agreed with them that a baker shouldn’t be forced to make a cake that they didn’t want to, but that equal right was far more important than a baker having to make a cake with 2 grooms on the top. [I guess I’m really trying to just head off the people who assume I’m a homophobe based on this. I support and celebrated this ruling. I just have always thought that private business should be able to chose who they serve, and that it should be OK to be an asshole business owner.] Here is my opinion: If the business is a sole proprietorship, the owner should have the same right of discrimination that I have if I own a home. In my home, I can decide whom I allow in and can kick anyone out at any time for any reason, no matter how stupid the reason is, and no matter how much of a jackass it makes me for doing it. However, if the business is incorporated, it gains several benefits from the state, such as limitation of liability, and some tax benefits. I do not feel it is at all unreasonable for the state to attach strings to those benefits, such as telling them they can’t refuse service to people based on race, sex, religion, or whatever else we as a society deem an unacceptable grounds for discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/339 "2015-07-13T23:14:31Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > Here is my opinion: If the business is a sole proprietorship, the owner should have the same right of discrimination that I have if I own a home. In my home, I can decide whom I allow in and can kick anyone out at any time for any reason, no matter how stupid the reason is, and no matter how much of a jackass it makes me for doing it. So I should be able to refuse black people jobs and refuse business to black people because I’m a sole proprietor? I thank you for wishing me expanded rights but I really don’t need them. I file a business license with the town to take part in commerce as a business. The city and state have a valid interest regulating commerce. I think the city should not issue licenses to businesses that discriminate against the cities population. I don’t think they have a very compelling case to regulate what goes on in my house. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/340 "2015-07-13T23:23:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What does equal protection have to do with the activities of a private business? > > 14th amendment has to do with (in part) equal protection: > > " nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." > > The bakery is not a state. So the 14th amendment really doesn’t apply to wedding cakes as it might apply to marriage licenses. The Voting Rights Act has stood its ground on the basis of the 14th and 15th Amendments. It requires privately owned public accommodations to serve all people equally. > [@](#): > > TITLE II–INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AGAINST DISCRIMINATION IN PLACES OF PUBLIC ACCOMMODATION > SEC. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin. [QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi] HIGHLY doubtful. Just because mainstream Americans are open to gay marriage despite the protests of the fundamentalists doesn’t mean they are ready to throw religious freedom under the truck. Religious freedom is enshrined in the constitution in a way that things like abortion and state paid legal counsel are not. I wouldn’t get overconfident. When a state infringes on the rights of a citizen, the constitution can prefer one over the other. Its a much closer call when its one citizen’s rights against another citizen’s rights. I would suggest that the religious bigots have constitutional language to support them, what do you have in this battle of the rights? [/QUOTE] I have the simple premise that our society will not continue to allow injustice in the form of bigotry. It is only a matter of time before we will be willing to modify the constitution to stamp out injustice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=18)