# Should private businesses be allowed to discriminate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529 "2015-07-08T00:03:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/361 "2015-07-14T05:37:37Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There is a lot of question about whether or not it is against the law. Freedom of religion is a constitutional principle in every state I can think of. What about my freedom as a practicing Aztec to rip the hearts out of ritual sacrifices? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/362 "2015-07-14T05:53:46Z")
Why not? We’ve already got two Kali worshipers who want to strangle strangers along the road for the glory of Thuggee. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/363 "2015-07-14T18:16:57Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > I value individual freedom over equality in this case. As someone who also places a high value on individual freedom, my reflex is to favor your side. However, I think there is a an awful lot of nuance here that disappears into “in this case”. In the case of the wedding cake, or in the case of “any private business”? I mean, there’s freedom to act like an asshole, but the fact remains that the Jim Crow south was disgusting. If you’re not going to clarify more precisely where you draw the line on “being an asshole” and “harming others”, you’re just going to invite a bunch of attacks. In the case of forcing desegregation…on the one hand, I agree that it was a violation of individual freedoms; on the other hand, I find it hard to really care _in that case_. It’s definitely not the kind of exercise of freedom that I would find worth fighting and dying for. In the past few decades, I think it’s fair to say that the biggest undermining force against my personal libertarian values is the seeing the vast number of people dedicated to using their freedom, not to “pursue their self-interest”, but to deliberately act like assholes, in groups. In theory, I agree that the freer society is the better society. In practice…I sincerely _hope_ that evolution is not finished with us. Reading through this thread, I find that both sides have some good arguments, and I wonder things. Like, what if someone opened a bakery called “Wedding Cakes For Straight People” or, alternatively, “Wedding Cakes For Gay People”? I know it sounds silly, but I find thinking about it that way…interesting. I also think it ought to be the case that both businesses would get their asses kicked by “Wedding Cakes For All”. On the particular subject of wedding cases…regardless of what the law says, I don’t think I’d _want_ to buy a cake from someone who hated me. I’d be scared to eat it. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/364 "2015-07-14T18:39:01Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > The Voting Rights Act has stood its ground on the basis of the 14th and 15th Amendments. It requires privately owned public accommodations to serve all people equally. That wasn’t under the equal protection clause. I know you’re not saying that the Voting Rights Act requires privately owned public accommodations to serve al people equally. Are you saying that the 14th amendment says this? The public accomodations rulings were based on the commerce clause. They upheld federal laws that were passed by congress. The limited government folks (direct descendents of the states rights folks of the civil war) argued that congress cannot pass a law requiring a private business to serve blacks. The landmark civil rights case having to do with public accommodation upheld the Civil Rights Act under the commerce clause, not the 14th amendment and certainly not under equal protection. > **[Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_Atlanta_Motel,_Inc._v._United_States)** > > Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States, 379 U.S. 241 (1964), was a landmark decision of the Supreme Court of the United States holding that the Commerce Clause gave the U.S. Congress power to force private businesses to abide by Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, religion, or national origin in public accommodations. > This important case represented an immediate challenge to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the landmark piece of ci... Sexual orientation was not covered by the Civil Rights Act. You need congress to pass a law protecting sexual orientation as a protected class if you want that sort of treatment for the LGBT > [@](#): > > I have the simple premise that our society will not continue to allow injustice in the form of bigotry. It is only a matter of time before we will be willing to modify the constitution to stamp out injustice. I don’t think we will need to modify the constitution. We only need to pass a law. There will be resistance to passing the law but once it is passed, it will be very difficult to repeal. All I am saying is that gay rights do not exist in the form you think they do and right now religious bigotry against homosexuals is still protected under the first amendment. This will not change unless congress acts. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/365 "2015-07-14T18:45:31Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > It would make for a freer society. A “better” society is subjective, and not all will agree upon what “better” is. And that is why we have democracy. The subjective views of 300 million people are expressed in our congress and we live in the society that we want as opposed to a society that hews to some ideological principle. Pursuing a more free society without any concern about whether it is a better society is silly. People pursue a freer society because they believe it will be better that somehow it all works out as a net positive in the end but we have several decades of history that proves that it makes for a horrible society for minorities and the poor while making for a really pleasant society for wealthy bigots. By forcing those wealthy bigots to give up their bigotry is a fairly cheap price to pay to alleviate the burden of discrimination against minorities. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/366 "2015-07-14T18:46:42Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I also remember when it was perfectly okay for a man to urinate in public, right up against the wall of the grocery store, if he needed to. Some freedoms are not worth restoring! That’s not OK anymore? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/367 "2015-07-14T18:59:21Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Do you honestly think that if the 1964 Civil Rights Act was repealed tomorrow there would be White and Colored Lunch Counters in areas of the country? Separate water fountains and restrooms? > > In 1964, blacks would sometimes have to travel hundreds of miles before they could find a hotel or restaurant that would serve them. That was a serious issue that needed a serious piece of legislation to stop that terrible injustice. > > A wedding cake?!? Shop the competition if one single store won’t serve you. There is no demonstrable need for such overbearing legislation in this area. Yes, I know you will bring up a hypothetical rural area where there is only one cake store within a 1,000 mile radius, and if and when I see evidence that people must go without wedding cakes because of refusals by businesses, then I might change my mind. > > I live in the sticks and there are about 10 places that will bake a cake within 25 miles of here. History does not move only in one direction. I doubt we will see whites only restaurants pop up the day after we repeal the civil rights act just like we will probably not see 6 year old coal miners the day after we repeal the child labor laws. but over time we will see regression in some parts of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/368 "2015-07-14T19:00:59Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > What is and what is not compelling depends on the person. I value individual freedom over equality in this case. No individual should be forced, on his own property, to interact with another individual against his will. Any interaction or transaction between individuals should be voluntary for all participants, or should not happen. The law recognizes a difference between the private sphere of the home versus the public sphere of a business. I can hang a sign outside my home saying No Blacks Allowed. I can’t do that with a business. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/369 "2015-07-14T19:01:21Z")
> [@](#): > > I also remember when it was perfectly okay for a man to urinate in public, right up against the wall of the grocery store, if he needed to. Some freedoms are not worth restoring! [Don’t do that in the neighborhood of the publisher of the New York Post, he’ll put 16 reporters on your trail!](http://tktk.gawker.com/the-new-york-post-s-latest-cause-humiliating-a-powerle-1717581558) ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/370 "2015-07-14T19:05:45Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why does every clerk have to be willing to issue a marriage license to a gay couple or be fired? Good question. I wonder… Why does every clerk have to be willing to issue a marriage license to an interracial couple or be fired? Why does every clerk have to be willing to issue a marriage license to a non-Christian couple or be fired? Why does every clerk have to be willing to issue a marriage license to a tattooed couple or be fired? Why does every clerk have to be willing to issue a marriage license to a black couple or be fired? This could quickly become problematic, or at the very least, confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/371 "2015-07-14T19:08:34Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Didn’t we go over all this already with the pharmacist debate? It seems to be exactly the same discussion to me. > > Hey, if conservatives are willing to let pharmacists withhold anything that could possibly maybe cause a sperm to not meet an egg, even though birth control is sometimes used as a straightforward medication, why wouldn’t they be in favor of allowing the solitary town grocery store to not sell to teh gheys? I am in favor of letting a sole proprietorship pharmacist decide not to dispense plan B. Heck he doesn’t even have to carry it in his dispensary if he doesn’t want to carry it. I am pretty sure that no one thinks that a bakery MUST sell wedding cakes to gay couples if they don’t carry wedding cakes (because they don’t believe in marriage). I am against trying to starve the gay out of people by not selling them food. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/372 "2015-07-14T19:13:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I am in favor of letting a sole proprietorship pharmacist decide not to dispense plan B. Heck he doesn’t even have to carry it in his dispensary if he doesn’t want to carry it. I am pretty sure that no one thinks that a bakery MUST sell wedding cakes to gay couples if they don’t carry wedding cakes (because they don’t believe in marriage). > > I am against trying to starve the gay out of people by not selling them food. Isn’t allowing bakers to discriminate but not grocers a form of discrimination? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/373 "2015-07-14T19:15:04Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > What about my freedom as a practicing Aztec to rip the hearts out of ritual sacrifices? There are some states that have gays as a protected class and some that do not but every state has laws against murder. The RFRA does not apply to restrain the states from applying their laws. Religious liberty arguments are not invincible, they just can’t be dismissed as easily as some people seem to think. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/374 "2015-07-14T19:31:30Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That’s not OK anymore? :eek: Just be sure to tip your hat at any ladies walking by. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/375 "2015-07-14T19:33:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I am in favor of letting a sole proprietorship pharmacist decide not to dispense plan B. Heck he doesn’t even have to carry it in his dispensary if he doesn’t want to carry it. I am pretty sure that no one thinks that a bakery MUST sell wedding cakes to gay couples if they don’t carry wedding cakes (because they don’t believe in marriage). > > I am against trying to starve the gay out of people by not selling them food. So, some people can discriminate, but not others? Where do you draw the line? What if all of the clerks, or pharmacists, or bakers in a town don’t want to do X because it “violates their religion”. How about firefighters? Police? Doctors? Grocery store employees? Copy shop employees? Day-care center owners? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/376 "2015-07-14T19:34:28Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > Good question. I wonder… > > Why does every clerk have to be willing to issue a marriage license to an interracial couple or be fired? Religious accommodation does not have to be extended to this. > [@](#): > > Why does every clerk have to be willing to issue a marriage license to a non-Christian couple or be fired? Yet another protected class. > [@](#): > > Why does every clerk have to be willing to issue a marriage license to a tattooed couple or be fired? The only religion that discriminates against tattoos AFAICT is Judaism and I THINK there are rabbis that refuse to marry couples with visible tattoos and jewish cemeteries that refuse to bury Jews with visible tattoos. However, Jews as a general rule don’t insist that the rest of the world follows their religious beliefs so they don’t really hold it against me that I eat bacon cheeseburgers and lobster. > [@](#): > > Why does every clerk have to be willing to issue a marriage license to a black couple or be fired? It is ground for firing, religious exceptions do not apply to discrimination against protected classes. > [@](#): > > This could quickly become problematic, or at the very least, confusing. Its already problematic and confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/377 "2015-07-14T19:35:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Isn’t allowing bakers to discriminate but not grocers a form of discrimination? Sure but I’m allowed to discriminate because grocers are not a protected class. I’m also not sure what religious theory would allow them to let gays starve. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/378 "2015-07-14T20:43:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If I am happy to serve scones and cronuts to the gay community every morning but I refuse to make a wedding cake for a gay wedding, I don’t see what laws are being broken. > > One day soon, I suspect that sexual orientation will become a protected class > [@](#): > > So you may hate them but you may not discriminate against them because of their religion while they may discriminate against homosexuals because of their homosexuality. > [@](#): > > There is a lot of question about whether or not it is against the law. > [@](#): > > There are some states that have gays as a protected class and some that do not but every state has laws against murder. The RFRA does not apply to restrain the states from applying their laws. Religious liberty arguments are not invincible, they just can’t be dismissed as easily as some people seem to think. I hope that you can see that your last quote finally acknowledges what your other quotes do not: that there is, in fact, a law that protects gays from discrimination. No, it’s not a federal law. But it does exist. It is in that context that this discussion has been occurring. You seem to drift into exhortations that religious freedom is protected, but that sexual preference is not. And you are right, at the federal level. That (unfortunately) is an easy win for religion. But, it is in those states where sexual preference is a protected class that the debate really lies: Is it permissible for a person to violate that existing law in the name of religious freedom? I don’t think it is. Having read your posts, I think you might agree. But you keep dismissing those parameters to say that there is no protection for sexual preference. Fine. But what about when there is? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/379 "2015-07-14T20:46:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There are some states that have gays as a protected class and some that do not but every state has laws against murder. The RFRA does not apply to restrain the states from applying their laws. Religious liberty arguments are not invincible, they just can’t be dismissed as easily as some people seem to think. This discriminates against my right to worship Huitzilopochtli in the appropriate manner. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/380 "2015-07-14T20:56:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its already problematic and confusing. Right, which was the point of my ridiciulous suggestions. Because if someone doesn’t get this “religious beliefs” excuse under control, we’re going to see a garbageman refusing to pick up the trash from the gay married couple’s place. Someone has to just say to these people, your job is to do X, not sit in judgement on others. So pick up the frikkin’ garbage; print out the form and hand it to the gay couple; serve the pizza. I really never have understood why religions get a pass or special treatment in the ideas market. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=20)