# Should private businesses be allowed to discriminate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529 "2015-07-08T00:03:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/21 "2015-07-08T01:38:19Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Well, obviously some private businesses are allowed to discriminate. Ever seen a gym that only serves women? I doubt that the dating services on gay websites offer much to heterosexuals. And my local barbecue place probably doesn’t serve much that Orthodox Jews can eat. Plainly the debate is not over whether businesses can discriminate, but over which businesses can. Women only gyms may be problematic for this topic but not a dating site which. A dating site like “black people meet” (Is that what it’s called) may be discriminating to White, Latinos, Asians, etc, people but that is a separate conversation, as is the women only gyms. In other words, whether or not certain types of “reverse” discrimination should be allowed to exist is a separate debate. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/22 "2015-07-08T01:38:20Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > It seems that the problem with my position is that we would have to draw a line between essential services (obviously an ER doctor can’t say “I don’t work on _xxxxx_”) and far less essential services (I can’t think of any example less essential than cakes) > > If a huge business like Wal-Mart can say “we won’t make Confederate flag cakes”, why can’t a family owned bakery say “we won’t make gay wedding cakes”? They can say they will not make gay wedding cakes. What they can not do is say we will not sell wedding cakes to gay people. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/23 "2015-07-08T01:43:51Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Those of us that bother to read our history know for a fact the free market did not work to end discrimination. In many cases it worked to encourage businesses who would not have adopted bigoted policies to adopt them as a means to compete in a marketplace full of bigoted people. > > Please stop trying to volunteer minorities to be part of your free market experiments. OK, OK. I understand that my position would not have worked very well in 1900 or 1950, etc. But in these modern times I think that the free-market would work better than the government going to a bakery or a trophy shop and saying “You agreed to make a cake/trophy for that one customer, so now you have to make any cake/trophy that anyone requests, no matter what.” ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/24 "2015-07-08T01:47:13Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > OK, OK. I understand that my position would not have worked very well in 1900 or 1950, etc. But in these modern times I think that the free-market would work better than the government going to a bakery or a trophy shop and saying “You agreed to make a cake/trophy for that one customer, so now you have to make any cake/trophy that anyone requests, no matter what.” Requiring public accommodations serve all members of the public equally has worked fine for decades now. Why change it for the benefit of bigots who want to discriminate? Has there been any non-bigoted businesses hurt by this policy? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/25 "2015-07-08T01:48:31Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Well, obviously some private businesses are allowed to discriminate. Ever seen a gym that only serves women? I doubt that the dating services on gay websites offer much to heterosexuals. And my local barbecue place probably doesn’t serve much that Orthodox Jews can eat. Plainly the debate is not over whether businesses can discriminate, but over which businesses can. Women’s only gyms aside, none of those are examples of discrimination. A straight person is more than welcome to create a profile on a gay dating website, and an Orthodox Jew is unlikely to find anyone objecting to serving him at a barbeque place. Neither is likely to find anything they’d particularly want at those places, but they are not barred from using their services or buying their goods. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/26 "2015-07-08T01:52:08Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > The free market will take care of it. There are now doubt plenty of bakeries that will be more than happy to serve those gay couples who desire to marry. The current lawsuits filed against Christian bakeries are just the latest way that individual gay couples can obtain social status and signal their righteousness to the rest of progressive America. > > The entire debate over gay wedding cakes is just a way for gay people and their fellow travelers to get revenge on conservative Christians. There’s no meaningful debate because wedding cakes are nearly a commodity and are easily replaceable. > > Moreover, there’s almost no possibility than any major or publicly traded company could successfully discriminate on any category. Discrimination is bad for business because it pointlessly drives away potentially profitable transactions and any corporate management that tried to do so would surely find themselves swiftly excommunicated by shareholders from the company they once run. Uh-huh, just like the free market eliminated segregation and Jim Crow. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/27 "2015-07-08T01:55:46Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > If a huge business like Wal-Mart can say “we won’t make Confederate flag cakes”, why can’t a family owned bakery say “we won’t make gay wedding cakes”? I think that you really honestly don’t understand this. Saying I will not sell product in my store (to anyone) is not the same as saying I will serve product in my store but only to people in category [A],\*\*, and [C] but not for people in category [Y]. When you choose not to carry a particular product that is not the same as discrimination, because, it is equally unavailable to all people. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/28 "2015-07-08T01:57:38Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > They can say they will not make gay wedding cakes. What they can not do is say we will not sell wedding cakes to gay people. Excellent point. Now we are getting somewhere. However, I’m not sure what a “gay wedding cake” is, other than the figurines on top. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/29 "2015-07-08T01:58:37Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > If a huge business like Wal-Mart can say “we won’t make Confederate flag cakes”, why can’t a family owned bakery say “we won’t make gay wedding cakes”? And, for the bajillionth time, any bakery can decide they don’t do rainbows or whatever. But they can’t decide they don’t serve gay customers. We already did the “discrimination is okay” think. It led to segregated towns and all kinds of embarrassing and inhumane nastiness, as it has in every country that has tried it. ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/30 "2015-07-08T01:58:43Z")
We have discussed this many times. I am driven to the point that businesses should be allowed to discriminate. as soon as you say they should not be allowed to do so, you start down the hopeless road of defining discrimination and deciding whose views to tolerate and whose not. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/31 "2015-07-08T02:00:37Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > We have discussed this many times. I am driven to the point that businesses should be allowed to discriminate. as soon as you say they should not be allowed to do so, you start down the hopeless road of defining discrimination and deciding whose views to tolerate and whose not. How about everyone’s as long as it’s not illegal? ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/32 "2015-07-08T02:01:00Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Except in small towns. There are two bakeries in this town I live in, 20,000 people in the city, 30,000 in the county as a whole. The issues of cakes has never come up as far as I know but it’s not a town where it is “accepted” to walk around an be flamboyantly gay. I think your idea that they can allways just go to another shop is not accurate. you can buy a cake online nowadays. > [@](#): > > What is wrong with that? It wouldn’t even be an issue if their status was not already in question by conservatives. what’s wrong with it is that you are forcing people to do something that violates their conscience. that is wrong…right? ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/33 "2015-07-08T02:02:12Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > How about everyone’s as long as it’s not illegal? Yes…ok. I would prefer to say that as long as the exercise of your freedom doesn’t compromise someone else’s exercise of their freedom, you should be allowed to do it. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/34 "2015-07-08T02:03:48Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Women only gyms may be problematic for this topic but not a dating site which. A dating site like “black people meet” (Is that what it’s called) may be discriminating to White, Latinos, Asians, etc, people but that is a separate conversation, as is the women only gyms. In other words, whether or not certain types of “reverse” discrimination should be allowed to exist is a separate debate. Why should there be any legal difference between “reverse” discrimination and garden-variety discrimination? And in any case, who decides whether discrimination is reverse or not? I can’t see any constitutional basis for outlawing discrimination but not outlawing reverse discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/35 "2015-07-08T02:03:54Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In any case, I’m with the OP. I’ll take freedom over forced cake baking. If you want to never bake cakes, do not become a baker. If you want to bake cakes, but only for certain people, give away your cakes or work informally. If you want to make money off baking cakes by opening a business that serves the public, it’s going to be tough to sell me on the idea that you are now being forced to bake cakes. ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/36 "2015-07-08T02:04:03Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > And, for the bajillionth time, any bakery can decide they don’t do rainbows or whatever. But they can’t decide they don’t serve gay customers. > > We already did the “discrimination is okay” think. It led to segregated towns and all kinds of embarrassing and inhumane nastiness, as it has in every country that has tried it. actually, the free market worked against segregation in the south. even racist train operators still wanted their cars to be full with paying customers. the love of profit trumped their racism. The govt had to force these guys to follow the rules about who could sit where. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/37 "2015-07-08T02:04:10Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > OK, OK. I understand that my position would not have worked very well in 1900 or 1950, etc. But in these modern times I think that the free-market would work better than the government going to a bakery or a trophy shop and saying “You agreed to make a cake/trophy for that one customer, so now you have to make any cake/trophy that anyone requests, no matter what.” What is it about these modern times that you think makes us impervious to the kind of systemic discrimination practiced in this country within living memory? Things are better now than they were in the 1950s. We could get rid of all of these anti-discrimination laws tomorrow, and life would probably not be significantly worse for most minorities. But what if they don’t stay better? What if those old attitudes start to gain a toe-hold again? Do we have to let things deteriorate to the point they were at fifty years ago before we remedy it again? Would it not be smarter and more humane to keep laws in place to ensure - to the extent of our ability - that that sort of society is never allowed to come back? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/38 "2015-07-08T02:05:05Z")
> [@cornopean](#): > > Yes…ok. I would prefer to say that as long as the exercise of your freedom doesn’t compromise someone else’s exercise of their freedom, you should be allowed to do it. And by that you mean you should be able to force your religion down another person’s throat? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/39 "2015-07-08T02:05:16Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > OK, OK. I understand that my position would not have worked very well in 1900 or 1950, etc. But in these modern times I think that the free-market would work better than the government going to a bakery or a trophy shop and saying “You agreed to make a cake/trophy for that one customer, so now you have to make any cake/trophy that anyone requests, no matter what.” It sounds almost like what you are saying is that a little bit of discrimination is ok, as long as, you know, it’s “not as bad as it was in 1950”. ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/40 "2015-07-08T02:05:34Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > If you want to never bake cakes, do not become a baker. > > If you want to bake cakes, but only for certain people, give away your cakes or work informally. > > If you want to make money off baking cakes by opening a business that serves the public, it’s going to be tough to sell me on the idea that you are now being forced to bake cakes. This sounds great. In my heart, I follow this. but when I use my head and think rationally, I think…how much longer before society decides to make me do something that I don’t want to do? If you think it’s just bakers, hang on. It will be you tomorrow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=3)