# Should private businesses be allowed to discriminate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529 "2015-07-08T00:03:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/441 "2015-07-16T04:23:36Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > In terms of public accommodation, gays are NOT a protected class in most of the United States, which you don’t seem to understand. > > Do you even know in which jurisdiction Ms. Zealot resides? Isn’t possible, or even likely, that they are not a protected class where she does business? > > The Civil Rights Act of 1964 does not apply. Convince us that the protections offered by Oregon, et al., should be applied nationwide? Wow you are having a hard time with this… I’m not talking about gays. No even if you think I am, I’m not. The protected class that Ms Zealot has an issue with is race. Race is a protected class in all of the US. Ms Zealot says she lives in the US, it doesn’t matter where in the US she lives. The Civil Rights Act absolutely applies, now can you please stop trying to claim I’m making an argument based on sexual orientation as a nation wide protect class. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/442 "2015-07-16T04:27:34Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You’ve never bought an expensive custom-made wedding cake or custom made wedding clothing have you? They can be unique products. They can be works of art. Musicians are artist and should not be compelled to take clients they do not want. On a smaller scale the typical little bakery doesn’t have pre-made wedding cakes to sell. The cakes are ordered by the customer and custom-made. If you’re going to offer works of art for sale to one group of people, you can’t change your mind and decide not to sell them to another group, within the legally protected classes. You can’t say, “Ooh, my artistic integrity is compromised by a black customer,” and argue that the Civil Rights Act “forces you to create.” You opened a store and put up a menu? Then you will serve customers equally. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I think we all know what a lie by omission is. And some vendors especially in hospitality and entertainment already require various legally binding contracts be signed before allowing someone to buy their products such as occurs with security deposits and payment plans. Scenarios like Ann Hedonia suggest will only aggravate this problem. What “white lie by omission” do you have in mind? A guy asks to buy a cake, and his sister is with him because she’ll be picking it up later. They had no intention to lie. They came in, did their business openly and honestly, and both parties were satisfied. It’s the baker’s own stupid fault if he made an assumption. Your case is getting thinner and thinner. It’s like one of those coins that’s so thin you can read the obverse through the reverse. Unless a gay carries a sign-board around with him at all times – “For Lo, I am Gay!” – then he’s “lying” by omission. What a silly assumption that is. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/443 "2015-07-16T04:32:01Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > . . . no one is objecting to unique artistic expression being exempt from the law. Oops, I am. If a guy is, say, a painter, and offers to execute highly artistic and skilled portraits, in return for money, as a business – then “artistic expression” is not a good enough reason for him to say, “Whites only.” (Obviously, if this worked, every bigot would immediately claim that his business, from baking cakes to pouring concrete, was “artistic expression.”) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/444 "2015-07-16T04:38:32Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > I’m not talking about gays. No even if you think I am, I’m not. This thread is about gays. See the OP. Specifically, same-sex marriage and bakers and cakes. You are talking about gays. Did you forget? Here’s you, in post # 425: > [@](#): > > No one is forcing baker’s to attend gay weddings. The law says they can not refuse service based on sexual orientation. They can’t pick and choose who is worthy of a cake based on a person’s protected class status. You’re the one who keeps bringing up race in a thread about discrimination based on sexual orientation. One is protected under the Civil Rights Act, and one is not. But you keep posting as if the same rules apply to both. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/445 "2015-07-16T04:40:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Oops, I am. If a guy is, say, a painter, and offers to execute highly artistic and skilled portraits, in return for money, as a business – then “artistic expression” is not a good enough reason for him to say, “Whites only.” > > (Obviously, if this worked, every bigot would immediately claim that his business, from baking cakes to pouring concrete, was “artistic expression.”) But, just for curiosity or devil advocate, if he worked from home and worked for cash and filed no tax returns and had no business licence, it would be pretty hard to prosecute him… ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/446 "2015-07-16T04:51:05Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > This thread is about gays. See the OP. Specifically, same-sex marriage and bakers and cakes. > > You are talking about gays. Did you forget? Here’s you, in post # 425: > > You’re the one who keeps bringing up race in a thread about discrimination based on sexual orientation. One is protected under the Civil Rights Act, and one is not. But you keep posting as if the same rules apply to both. I do not think, believe or assume sexual orientation is a protected class throughout the US. I have never said, posted or claimed sexual orientation is a protected class throughout the US. You are the only person who truly believes otherwise. In the specific example in the OP about discrimination against gays the OP refers to a case in Oregon where sexual orientation is a protected class. The title of the thread is ‘Should private businesses be allowed to discriminate’ not ‘Should private businesses be allowed to discriminate against gays’ You seem to think you have me in some sort of gotcha and harping on this will somehow bolster whatever argument you are trying to make. I don’t even understand what you are trying to argue in relation to the thread. Perhaps you should focus on that rather then the mistakes you’ve made in reading comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/447 "2015-07-16T04:59:49Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Perhaps you should focus on that rather then the mistakes you’ve made in reading comprehension. Perhaps you should concentrate on making comprehensible posts. You talk about gays in post #425 and #436, and then in post #441, you say you’re not talking about gays. Are you sure you’re OK? ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/448 "2015-07-16T05:10:15Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Perhaps you should concentrate on making comprehensible posts. > > You talk about gays in post #425 and #436, and then in post #441, you say you’re not talking about gays. Are you sure you’re OK? Seriously? You are going to cite a post in which I specifically told you personally I was not talking about gays as an example of me talking about gays? > [@boytyperanma](#): > > I’m not talking about gays. No even if you think I am, I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/449 "2015-07-16T05:16:39Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Seriously? You are going to cite a post in which I specifically told you personally I was not talking about gays as an example of me talking about gays? #425 > [@](#): > > No one is forcing baker’s to attend gay weddings. The law says they can not refuse service based on sexual orientation. They can’t pick and choose who is worthy of a cake based on a person’s protected class status. #436 > [@](#): > > I’m not sure can you please clarify who is lying by omission? Does the bigoted shop keeper have a sign saying ‘No gays allowed’? > > If they don’t tell me they are a bigot am I supposed to let them know I’m gay just in case? #441 > [@](#): > > I’m not talking about gays. Really? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/450 "2015-07-16T13:15:09Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Of course, not, I’m an adult that understands that everyone has a right to choose who they do business with. The fact that you chose not to enforce your own rights does not mean you get to dictate whether other people can enforce theirs. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/451 "2015-07-16T13:56:28Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Oops, I am. If a guy is, say, a painter, and offers to execute highly artistic and skilled portraits, in return for money, as a business – then “artistic expression” is not a good enough reason for him to say, “Whites only.” > > (Obviously, if this worked, every bigot would immediately claim that his business, from baking cakes to pouring concrete, was “artistic expression.”) So, let’s say I am an artist who has painted only white people all my life, and have never painted a black person. My skill set is just not developed in terms of getting darker skin tones accurately, so I kindly ask a potential black client to find another artist. He refuses to do so, insisting that I paint his portrait. Am I required to spend time making sure I am able to get darker skin tones right? Can I ask him to sign a disclaimer that he won’t reject the painting afterwards if the skin tone looks wrong? What if I specialize in painting the female form, or painting children or dogs. Am I required to paint a man or an adult pr a human? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/452 "2015-07-16T14:04:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, let’s say I am an artist who has painted only white people all my life, and have never painted a black person. My skill set is just not developed in terms of getting darker skin tones accurately, so I kindly ask a potential black client to find another artist. He refuses to do so, insisting that I paint his portrait. Am I required to spend time making sure I am able to get darker skin tones right? Can I ask him to sign a disclaimer that he won’t reject the painting afterwards if the skin tone looks wrong? > > What if I specialize in painting the female form, or painting children or dogs. Am I required to paint a man or an adult pr a human? Well actually dark skin tones are much easier to paint. But to answer your hypothetical with a hypothetical, If I teach guitar, and I’m a “tough guy” and I think the piano is “for wimps” and I can barely even PLAY the piano and a wimpy looking person comes up to me and asks me for piano lessons and I tell them I can barely even play the piano and they say you are the greatest musician I have ever heard even if you you are not an expert at the piano I sill want piano lessons, well, yeah, I’d kind of be a jerk to not give them a piano lesson. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/453 "2015-07-16T15:14:52Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > If you’re going to offer works of art for sale to one group of people, you can’t change your mind and decide not to sell them to another group, within the legally protected classes. > > You can’t say, “Ooh, my artistic integrity is compromised by a black customer,” and argue that the Civil Rights Act “forces you to create.” > > You opened a store and put up a menu? Then you will serve customers equally. > > What “white lie by omission” do you have in mind? A guy asks to buy a cake, and his sister is with him because she’ll be picking it up later. They had no intention to lie. They came in, did their business openly and honestly, and both parties were satisfied. > > It’s the baker’s own stupid fault if he made an assumption. > > Your case is getting thinner and thinner. It’s like one of those coins that’s so thin you can read the obverse through the reverse. Unless a gay carries a sign-board around with him at all times – “For Lo, I am Gay!” – then he’s “lying” by omission. What a silly assumption that is. In the scenario you set up it seems Leviticus Bakery was an obvious Christian fundamentalist business, the kind of place where the owners put their faith into most aspects of their lines and would not want to bake a cake for a gay wedding. Your characters devised a situation in which most people especially of the Christian fundamentalist variety would assume the couple the cake was being made for was heterosexual. They did not do their business openly and honestly anymore than a guy selling bricks packaged in sealed Sony camcorder boxes is doing his business openly and honestly. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/454 "2015-07-16T16:36:22Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Well actually dark skin tones are much easier to paint. But to answer your hypothetical with a hypothetical, If I teach guitar, and I’m a “tough guy” and I think the piano is “for wimps” and I can barely even PLAY the piano and a wimpy looking person comes up to me and asks me for piano lessons and I tell them I can barely even play the piano and they say you are the greatest musician I have ever heard even if you you are not an expert at the piano I sill want piano lessons, well, yeah, I’d kind of be a jerk to not give them a piano lesson. No you wouldn’t, they’d be jerks for expecting you to perform a service you don’t want to offer. I think this trying to set the law as ‘if you are capable of offering a service you should be required to do so.’ That’s going over a line I’m not willing to consider. I shouldn’t be able to force my grocery store into carrying kosher products I wish to by nor should I be able to force an artist that does nude portraits of women to do a nude of myself. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/455 "2015-07-16T16:50:21Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > No you wouldn’t, they’d be jerks for expecting you to perform a service you don’t want to offer. > > I think this trying to set the law as ‘if you are capable of offering a service you should be required to do so.’ That’s going over a line I’m not willing to consider. > > I shouldn’t be able to force my grocery store into carrying kosher products I wish to by nor should I be able to force an artist that does nude portraits of women to do a nude of myself. > [@](#): > > So, let’s say I am an artist who has painted only white people all my life, and have never painted a black person. My skill set is just not developed in terms of getting darker skin tones accurately, so I kindly ask a potential black client to find another artist. He refuses to do so, insisting that I paint his portrait. Am I required to spend time making sure I am able to get darker skin tones right? Can I ask him to sign a disclaimer that he won’t reject the painting afterwards if the skin tone looks wrong? You know, I was very specific, for a reason. I put the “piano players are wimps” in there for a reason… to illustrate that when most people refuse to do something they have an undeclared bias. I get really suspicious whenever someone says to me: “Robert, here is this totally hypothetical situation where I am not doing anything wrong at all now please listen to my example and tell me why after listening to my totally hypothetical situation where I am not doing anything wrong… why Robert why!!! why do you still think I’m a bigoted asshole!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/456 "2015-07-16T16:52:26Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In the scenario you set up it seems Leviticus Bakery was an obvious Christian fundamentalist business, the kind of place where the owners put their faith into most aspects of their lines and would not want to bake a cake for a gay wedding. Your characters devised a situation in which most people especially of the Christian fundamentalist variety would assume the couple the cake was being made for was heterosexual. They did not do their business openly and honestly anymore than a guy selling bricks packaged in sealed Sony camcorder boxes is doing his business openly and honestly. You shouldn’t assume that all Christians, or all evangelical Christians, are anti-gay bigots. Doing so is wrong. If a baker wants everyone to be aware that they intend to discriminate, the onus is on them to broadcast this intention. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/457 "2015-07-16T18:30:51Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > I hope that you can see that your last quote finally acknowledges what your other quotes do not: that there is, in fact, a law that protects gays from discrimination. No, it’s not a federal law. But it does exist. It is in that context that this discussion has been occurring. Then we have been having different conversations. People have been bringing up constitutional principles like equal protection and the first amendment in the federal context. > [@](#): > > You seem to drift into exhortations that religious freedom is protected, but that sexual preference is not. And you are right, at the federal level. That (unfortunately) is an easy win for religion. But, it is in those states where sexual preference is a protected class that the debate really lies: Is it permissible for a person to violate that existing law in the name of religious freedom? I don’t know. Maybe but probably not. > [@](#): > > I don’t think it is. Having read your posts, I think you might agree. But you keep dismissing those parameters to say that there is no protection for sexual preference. Fine. But what about when there is? When there is specific legislation that makes sexual orientation a protected class, then I would agree that a bakery cannot discriminate against people based on sexual orientation. I would also submit that this is the minority of states and having protected class status in states that are already in favor of gay rights is not where gay rights are most in need of defense. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/458 "2015-07-16T18:34:28Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > This discriminates against my right to worship Huitzilopochtli in the appropriate manner. Doesn’t matter. The RFRA does not apply to the states. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/459 "2015-07-16T18:35:35Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > Right, which was the point of my ridiciulous suggestions. > > Because if someone doesn’t get this “religious beliefs” excuse under control, we’re going to see a garbageman refusing to pick up the trash from the gay married couple’s place. > > Someone has to just say to these people, your job is to do X, not sit in judgement on others. So pick up the frikkin’ garbage; print out the form and hand it to the gay couple; serve the pizza. > > I really never have understood why religions get a pass or special treatment in the ideas market. > **[First Amendment to the United States Constitution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)** > > The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prevents the government from making laws respecting an establishment of religion; prohibiting the free exercise of religion; or abridging the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, the freedom of assembly, or the right to petition the government for redress of grievances. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights. In the original draft of the Bill of Rights, wh... ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/460 "2015-07-16T18:40:15Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Yeah, they are getting old. I have a new one:) > > Maybe I’m just an Elitist Northeasterner, but I’ve been to a lot of weddings and in my experience, wedding cakes aren’t Costco sheet cakes emblazoned with Happy Marriage and Good Luck with your New Life, Adam and Eve. They are typically elaborate tiered affairs with curlicues and roses but nary any text. > > So what if Adam and Steve are determined to get their wedding cake from The Leviticus Evangelical Bakery? Suppose Adam just goes in with a female friend and orders their wedding cake without making too much conversation with the person taking the order, letting them assume that his fiancé is a woman. Heck, let’s suppose he even lies to the baker in order to be allowed to buy the cake. > > Then, suppose that once said cake has been delivered and the wedding has taken place, that the owner of The Leviticus Evangelical Bakery finds out that his cake was used in a gay wedding. Maybe he sees Adam and Steve feeding each other his heterosexual wedding cake on Facebook. > > This would be horrible, right? Adam and Steve used deception to force the poor baker to violate his religious beliefs. It’s almost like they baked cupcakes with pork fat and knowingly served them to a Muslim, right? > > Do you think the baker should have any legal remedy against Adam and Steve? If they saved the top tier for their anniversary could they be forced to give it back? > > Or do you agree that it would be silly? If you think that would be silly, why would it have been so righteous to refuse to sell them the cake in the first place. There is a difference between knowingly aiding and abetting in the commission of a sin and being deceived into doing so. If they were tricked and deceived then the sin belongs entirely to the gay couple. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=24)