# Should private businesses be allowed to discriminate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529 "2015-07-08T00:03:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/501 "2015-07-17T12:40:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > We’re not talking about an employee carrying out orders from a boss. That would be a different discussion. We’re talking about someone in a creative field being forced to create something they have no interest in creating. I turn down work quite often, sometimes simply because I don’t think I can muster up the energy or excitement to do as good a job as I’d like to. In fact, I’ve turned down the most lucrative job I’ve ever been offered because I, disagreeing with what the client makes, I know I would not have done a good job. Yeah, well, professionalism, that’s taking paying work even if you are not enthusiastic about it. Once can complain and obsess over the task at hand but all that does is make twice as much stress as if you would of simply tightened your belt, put on your gloves, and just got to work. > [@](#): > > Imagine a popular sculptor who does corporate installations. let’s say he’s gay, should he be forced to spend a year of his life working on an installation for Hobby Lobby? Should a devout Christian sculptor be forced to spend a year working on an installation for Planned Parenthood? What if it’s a white sculptor who hates black people, should he be forced to carve a panther from marble for the actual black panthers? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/502 "2015-07-17T12:47:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > We’re not talking about an employee carrying out orders from a boss. That would be a different discussion. We’re talking about someone in a creative field being forced to create something they have no interest in creating. I turn down work quite often, sometimes simply because I don’t think I can muster up the energy or excitement to do as good a job as I’d like to. In fact, I’ve turned down the most lucrative job I’ve ever been offered because I, disagreeing with what the client makes, I know I would not have done a good job. 1- Scenario 1 - You think the customer is an ABOMINATION and therefor you will be too creeped out working for them to do a good job. This is your fault, not the customer, because, the customer is not actually an ABOMINATION, it’s just you who think that. 2 - Scenario 2 - You know from past experience and how you work in general that you and this customer are not a good fit. You politely decline the job. This is a situation where both you and the customer are not a good fit, nobodies fault. You can see the difference between Scenario 1 and Scenario 2, right? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/503 "2015-07-17T12:55:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Hypothetical: John and Joe are getting married. And they want a cake from the bakery down the street… > > Hypothetical 2: Susan is getting divorced from her husband… > > From a religious conviction standpoint, is there any difference between his convictions against divorce and SS marriage? From a religious conviction standpoint: No. But from the legal standpoint that every citizen has the right not to be discriminated against: _From a religious conviction standpoint, is there any difference between his convictions against divorce and SS marriage?_ Well his conflict of conscience, legally speaking, is irrelevant. Just remember, whenever you get confused swap interracial marriage for SSM and see if your example still pass the test of what is legally allowed or not allowed. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/504 "2015-07-17T12:55:23Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1- Scenario 1 - You think the customer is an ABOMINATION and therefor you will be too creeped out working for them to do a good job. This is your fault, not the customer, because, the customer is not actually an ABOMINATION, it’s just you who think that. > > 2 - Scenario 2 - You know from past experience and how you work in general that you and this customer are not a good fit. You politely decline the job. This is a situation where both you and the customer are not a good fit, nobodies fault. > You can see the difference between Scenario 1 and Scenario 2, right? Before I answer your questions, how about you answer mine? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/505 "2015-07-17T12:58:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Before I answer your questions, how about you answer mine? Already done. But at some point you are going to have to accept that your side lost and that 1,000 hypothetical examples are not going to do anything to change that. I could make 1,000 examples of why I didn’t want to sell a house to a Latino couple, but, all 1,000 examples would be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/506 "2015-07-17T13:04:39Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Already done. But at some point you are going to have to accept that your side lost and that 1,000 hypothetical examples are not going to do anything to change that. I could make 1,000 examples of why I didn’t want to sell a house to a Latino couple, but, all 1,000 examples would be illegal. Sorry, I thought you were interested in having a discussion. My mistake. And just so you know, most black people don’t appreciate you the equivalence you so love putting forth when you have no other argument. See ya. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/507 "2015-07-17T13:10:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Should the baker be sued? Could he be sued? By whom? The client, Susan, is a heterosexual woman. He is not saying he won’t bake a cake for her, just not for a particular flavor of event. Well leaving aside a cake for John and Joe could have been for a heterosexual wedding… The baker was perfectly capable of doing the design and creative process without ever knowing the sexuality of the involved parties, so I question how the baker can make a claim that they are rejecting the job on the basis of creative process. The baker appears to be rejecting the work on the basis of sexual orientation, which is illegal in some states. > [@](#): > > Should he be sued? Could he be sued? On what grounds? > > From a religious conviction standpoint, is there any difference between his convictions against divorce and SS marriage? He appears to be refusing service based on marital which is also illegal. I think it would be fair to refuse to write ‘happy divorce day’ on the cake. Refusal to sell her at all is suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/508 "2015-07-17T13:14:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sorry, I thought you were interested in having a discussion. My mistake. > > And just so you know, most black people don’t appreciate you the equivalence you so love putting forth when you have no other argument. > > See ya. Don’t pretend that you want a discussion either. You want a captive audience so that you can complain about how your side lost the fight and how unfair and terrible you think that is. It’s fine tt make one, or two, hypothetical examples about the conflicted conscience of a Baker who doesn’t want to make a SSM wedding cake. But you keep making examples over and over again even though it is explained to you perfectly well what the problem(s) with your example(s) are. To keep making example after example after it’s been explained to you is complaining, it’s not, discussion. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/509 "2015-07-17T13:55:55Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Don’t pretend that you want a discussion either. You want a captive audience so that you can complain about how your side lost the fight and how unfair and terrible you think that is. It’s fine tt make one, or two, hypothetical examples about the conflicted conscience of a Baker who doesn’t want to make a SSM wedding cake. HA! So, you ADMIT that YOU don’t want to have a discussion. :smack: Good, we have agreement there. And my reward for being right about that is to free myself from trying of make further sense out of your ill-thought-out, emotional, bipolar, condescension-dripping mutterings. And, though you won’t have to worry your pretty little head about his moving forward, I will offer as many hypotheticals as I feel may be illuminating. Especially when they are looking at things from _different_ points of view. But thanks for you input! Rest assured that I gave it every bit of the consideration it warranted. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/510 "2015-07-17T14:03:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And just so you know, most black people don’t appreciate you the equivalence you so love putting forth when you have no other argument. Do you get a free toaster every time you post something where you concern troll black people? Does an angel get its wings? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/511 "2015-07-17T14:08:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Do you get a free toaster every time you post something where you concern troll black people? Does an angel get its wings? No. An Al Sharpton tracksuit. I just got the shiny burgundy one! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/512 "2015-07-17T14:24:59Z")
Well played, sir. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/513 "2015-07-17T16:05:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Good, we have agreement there. And my reward for being right about that is to free myself from trying of make further sense out of your ill-thought-out, emotional, bipolar, condescension-dripping mutterings. Ah, your true colors emerge. Me, however, I’ve been direct and honest about who I really am from the beginning. I’m sure Christ endorses your insults. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/514 "2015-07-17T17:47:37Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > What if it’s a white sculptor who hates black people, should he be forced to carve a panther from marble for the actual black panthers? Absolutely not, and I would be willing to contribute substantial funds to his or her legal defense if he or she were sued over refusing just such a commission. The creative process isn’t like engineering, It’s not a matter of just slapping all the right materials in a pattern to create a product. Artists or crafters (quite, honestly I consider them basically the same) may CHOOSE to take work they dislike or consider beneath them, but forcing them, well, that’s a level of state control and the state trampling on individual liberty and freedom that I don’t want to see implemented. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/515 "2015-07-17T18:46:03Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > HA! So, you ADMIT that YOU don’t want to have a discussion. :smack: > > Good, we have agreement there. And my reward for being right about that is to free myself from trying of make further sense out of your ill-thought-out, emotional, bipolar, condescension-dripping mutterings. > > And, though you won’t have to worry your pretty little head about his moving forward, I will offer as many hypotheticals as I feel may be illuminating. Especially when they are looking at things from _different_ points of view. But thanks for you input! Rest assured that I gave it every bit of the consideration it warranted. You know better than this. Warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/516 "2015-07-17T19:11:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You probably recall the recent kerfuffle over Mike Pence signing a particularly “strong” version of the RFRA into Indiana law. Yeah, I’m not really familiar with them. Heck I didn’t know about the RFRA until Bricker told me about it in an attempt to explain why Hobby Lobby wasn’t off its rocker. The RFRA is a crazy law. But democracy is messy. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/517 "2015-07-17T19:21:04Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > If Fred refuses to bake a cake for me and my partner because he thinks WE ARE AN ABOMINATION Fred is going to have a very very BIG fight on his hands. > > No offense, John Mace, but I fail to see how you fail to see how an important a wedding is or how offended someone would be if Fred said that me and my lover were AN ABOMINATION. So you are going to force him to bake a cake for you? You’re not going to change his mind and at this point you probably don’t even want the fucking cake. It seems like you just want to be able to force him to do something he doesn’t want to do in order to show him that you can. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/518 "2015-07-17T19:23:01Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Another nail in the coffin against discriminating against people based on sexual orientation. > > [Sexual Orientation Discrimination Is Barred By Existing Law, Federal Commission Rules](http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/sexual-orientation-discrimination-is-barred-by-existing-law#.dpqlDKJ7z) > > The ruling is specific to employment because it’s the EEOC but it paints a clear path forward through the courts to apply the CRAof1964 to sexual orientation. Well that was always a possibility but expect that to be taken to the supreme court if a suitable case arises. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/519 "2015-07-17T19:50:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So you are going to force him to bake a cake for you? You’re not going to change his mind and at this point you probably don’t even want the fucking cake. It seems like you just want to be able to force him to do something he doesn’t want to do in order to show him that you can. That’s exactly it. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/520 "2015-07-17T20:19:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So you are going to force him to bake a cake for you? You’re not going to change his mind and at this point you probably don’t even want the fucking cake. It seems like you just want to be able to force him to do something he doesn’t want to do in order to show him that you can. Yup, that’s exactly what they want to do, straight out of Schoolyard Bulling 101. Copied and Pasted because I can’t get the quotes to work right: No offense, John Mace, but I fail to see how you fail to see how an important a wedding is or how offended someone would be if Fred said that me and my lover were AN ABOMINATION. Being offended is part of being part of relative free and equal society. Being an adult is being able to realize there are more important things than worrying about the opinions of strangers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=27)