# Should private businesses be allowed to discriminate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529 "2015-07-08T00:03:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/161 "2015-07-09T10:30:07Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I live in a town with 20,000 people. In south Georgia. I don’t think any Hasidic Jews would be comfortable. Nor a Muslim in Muslim garb. Nor a vocal Atheist nor a flamboyant Homosexual. Would it be as bad for them as it was black people in the 1960’s? No. Is it still a stifling, close minded judgmental society? Yes, it is. Not all of the USA is as progressive as you make it out to be. Even if this is true, so friggin what? You now want to use the power of the state so you don’t feel stifled? That’s ridiculous. People that are different will always be looked at askant. If I show up in any small town with some unusual or exotic garb, people are likely to take notice and view me as an oddity. I might be making them uncomfortable, and the way the look at me might make me uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/162 "2015-07-09T11:10:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Even if this is true, so friggin what? You now want to use the power of the state so you don’t feel stifled? That’s ridiculous. People that are different will always be looked at askant. If I show up in any small town with some unusual or exotic garb, people are likely to take notice and view me as an oddity. I might be making them uncomfortable, and the way the look at me might make me uncomfortable. And your acceptance of this as “normal” and dismissal of any empathy for those who are actually experiencing it is what makes you present yourself as a morally bankrupt, small-minded bigot. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/163 "2015-07-09T11:41:23Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > You failed to answer the question. Why would anyone go through the trouble and expense of a lawsuit over a cake? > > Anyway, why wasn’t the lawsuit dismissed as de minimis? What harm did the plaintiffs suffer? It’s not about a cake. I know you’re obsessed over the fucking cake for some reason. It’s been said and explained repeatedly it isn’t about a cake. If you steal a dollar from me you have still broken the law. The damages are not limited to a dollar. The act of theft was a violation of my property, privacy and my freedom. If I sued you for this the damages rewarded can be many times the value of the dollar. Damages can be calculated a number of ways. If you targeted me specifically because a protected class status you have also violated my civil rights. They were sued because they broke the law. The couples civil rights were violated. They went through the trouble of suing because it is thier right to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/164 "2015-07-09T12:24:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Even if this is true, so friggin what? You now want to use the power of the state so you don’t feel stifled? That’s ridiculous. Could you maybe direct that comment to all the Christian folk objecting to having to do business with gay people? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/165 "2015-07-09T12:29:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, no, I don’t accept that if the laws were changed we’d see a resurgence of sundown towns. Those places could survive because they were insular and cut off from the outside world. With out 24 hour news cycle, the internet and the pervasiveness of national chains, those places would find it virtually impossible to survive. I disagree. Racism is alive and well in the US, as demonstrated by Trump’s standing in the polls as well as six years of Republicans acting batshit insane because there’s a black guy in the White House, as well as Republican-controlled states tripping over each other in their sprint to throw up barriers to minority voting. Put up a sign in your restaurant that says “no blacks” and in some parts of the US you’d attract more than you offend. Back to the cake nonsense. Bakers are like the rest of us. If you run a business open to the public, you have to serve all of the public. If you can’t accept that, don’t go into business. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/166 "2015-07-09T12:39:31Z")
I’m forgetting the exact details, but didn’t we just have a business receive hundreds of thousands of dollars from donors because the owners refused to do something that violated their religion? Dammit, my memory is failing me, but I think it goes to show that the internet does not always make failures of people who wish to discriminate. Sometimes, it actually rewards them. Also, I don’t think equating the KKK with gay people is the right way to go. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/167 "2015-07-09T13:59:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Even if this is true, so friggin what? You now want to use the power of the state so you don’t feel stifled? That’s ridiculous. People that are different will always be looked at askant. If I show up in any small town with some unusual or exotic garb, people are likely to take notice and view me as an oddity. I might be making them uncomfortable, and the way the look at me might make me uncomfortable. There is a difference between being socially uncomfortable around people who are different and using their differences as justification to treat them like second class citizens. They would use the power of the state so that people like you don’t decide to just find all the oddballs, set fire to their homes and drive them out of town for being odd. I don’t really see why people should pay any special attention to your “rights”, particularly when you don’t seem to have any interest in anyone else’s. > [@DrFidelius](#): > > And your acceptance of this as “normal” and dismissal of any empathy for those who are actually experiencing it is what makes you present yourself as a morally bankrupt, small-minded bigot. Sadly, this behavior is “normal”. It’s his awareness of this behavior and continuing it anyway which makes these sort of people morally bankrupt, small-minded bigots. And they are cowards. Rather than just come out and say “we hate fuckin’ fags”, they hide behind their “religious beliefs” and try and distract from the issue by trying to make it about their “rights” to discriminate. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/168 "2015-07-09T15:16:19Z")
> [@Uncle\_Jocko](#): > > Once again, how is _baking a cake_ going against anyone’s conscience? If you’re a baker, baking cakes is what you do. Why in the world does it matter what your customers want to use that cake for? > > This religious liberty/conscience thing is all a _very_ thinly veiled disguise for people who don’t like gays. Like I said before, unless this baker also refuses to provide cakes for weddings of divorced people (or, horrors, people who serve shrimp at the reception or wear tuxes made of mixed fabrics!) I can’t begin to take your cries of “conscience” seriously. > > It’s a cake. They’re not asking you to move in with them. Some bakers do feel their work is at least a skilled craft. At the very fair extreme of the baker spectrum there are people who describe their work as confectionary art and consider themselves artists. Some one like this could probably make a legally defensible argument that they should be allowed to choose to whom they sell their art or expend their creative energies upon. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/169 "2015-07-09T17:01:33Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > There is a difference between being socially uncomfortable around people who are different and using their differences as justification to treat them like second class citizens. > > They would use the power of the state so that people like you don’t decide to just find all the oddballs, set fire to their homes and drive them out of town for being odd. > > I don’t really see why people should pay any special attention to your “rights”, particularly when you don’t seem to have any interest in anyone else’s. Have you been drinking? Whose rights, specifically, am I not acknowledging, or have no interest in. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/170 "2015-07-09T17:04:40Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Haven’t we discussed the add infinitum here already? > > There are people here who support it but most of SDMB seems to be against it. The problem that I see is in small towns, what happens if it becomes very popular to turn away a certain customer? What if all the restaurants, or most of them, don’t want to serve “people who look like illegal immigrants”??? In a larger town there may only be one such shop if it is a narrow or specialized service. If there is only one shop in town that provides service and they do not want to serve [Y] category of people, people in category [Y] now have to drive to another town to receive service . We already know that you cannot refuse service based on race, what theory would you use to trump that principle? If an entire community wants to shun a gay couple to drive them out of town (I wonder what made them move to a place like that to begin with) then I suppose there isn’t much we can do to force them to welcome the gay couple with open arms. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/171 "2015-07-09T17:05:59Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > The free market will take care of it. There are now doubt plenty of bakeries that will be more than happy to serve those gay couples who desire to marry. The current lawsuits filed against Christian bakeries are just the latest way that individual gay couples can obtain social status and signal their righteousness to the rest of progressive America. > > The entire debate over gay wedding cakes is just a way for gay people and their fellow travelers to get revenge on conservative Christians. There’s no meaningful debate because wedding cakes are nearly a commodity and are easily replaceable. > > Moreover, there’s almost no possibility than any major or publicly traded company could successfully discriminate on any category. Discrimination is bad for business because it pointlessly drives away potentially profitable transactions and any corporate management that tried to do so would surely find themselves swiftly excommunicated by shareholders from the company they once run. You mean like how the free market drove all those “whites only” restaurants out of business? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/172 "2015-07-09T17:12:22Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > What is wrong with that? It wouldn’t even be an issue if their status was not already in question by conservatives. Freedom of religion. The status of gay marriage was not put into question by religious conservatives it was preserved by religious conservatives. I don’t believe we had gay marriage in 1776 or at any point between then and few years ago. Its a constitutionally protected right but one that was not clear to anyone until recently. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/173 "2015-07-09T17:13:25Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > You willing to own it? > > Like post a sign that says We Choose not to serve, gays, blacks, Jews, or whatever? > > Because if you are, I’m pretty sure the free market will indeed solve the problem swiftly indeed. > > Of course most people might choose to discriminate against businesses that are being hateful to others. You okay with that discrimination? Or are you just looking to dish it out? And sometimes the other bigots flock to your store. There is a reason why whites only diners didn’t all go out of business in the south. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/174 "2015-07-09T17:15:09Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > But the fight isn’t over. In fact, it’s hardly even begun. Its pretty much over. What’s going on now is colloquially referred to as death throes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/175 "2015-07-09T17:20:41Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > They can say they will not make gay wedding cakes. What they can not do is say we will not sell wedding cakes to gay people. Why not? I under stand why they SHOULD not be able to say that but why CAN they not say that? Can I say I will not serve Republicans or people who graduated from my cross town rivals? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/176 "2015-07-09T17:27:40Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > If you want to never bake cakes, do not become a baker. > > If you want to bake cakes, but only for certain people, give away your cakes or work informally. > > If you want to make money off baking cakes by opening a business that serves the public, it’s going to be tough to sell me on the idea that you are now being forced to bake cakes. So there is a bakery nearby called the new Canaan Bakery. The owners are deeply religious and there are crosses and scripture all over the bakery. Can they be forced to make a cake celebrating Satan? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/177 "2015-07-09T17:52:16Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The key question here is “If you were a black guy and asked for a hockey trophy, would they have made you one?” > > That’s not always an easy one to prove. But if they sold 35 hockey trophies this month and have a portfolio of black guys posing with hockey trophies, you’ve probably got a case. Likewise, if they advertise something like “Custom trophies-- we make anything!” and regularly make oddball trophies, you’ve got a case. Or if they say something like “I’m sorry, but I’m not comfortable encouraging your white-guy lifestyle,” that’s a giveaway. > > But if they work from a handful of molds and just don’t have hockey, that’s fine. Or if the place they order the statues from only has hockey on back order, that fine. The only thing that’s not fine is “We’d totally make you a hockey trophy, except that we don’t serve whites.” Race is a protected class. Sexual orientation is not a protected class. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/178 "2015-07-09T18:00:54Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Why should we care about their “conscience”? The first amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/179 "2015-07-09T18:02:37Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Having a society that allows open, sanctioned discrimination has never been good. Can you name one that was? Therefor, if people want to discriminate, ie, harm society, well I don’t really actually care about what they want. Why should I? They are acting in a harmful manner. We permit discrimination against felons, fat people, ugly people, short people, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529/180 "2015-07-09T18:04:36Z")
> [@Uncle\_Jocko](#): > > One _can_ continue to live according to their deeply held religious beliefs. It just may not be possible to do that while running a business providing goods and services to the public at large. Perhaps the monastic life would be more up one’s alley? > > Do you really not understand that? That’s funny because that is exactly what some anti-gay bigots are suggesting that gays do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-businesses-be-allowed-to-discriminate/724529.md?page=10)