A girl approves of this.
No, because the grocer is not using his or her own creative talents to creating unique food products to sell. Some bakers do consider themselves craftsman or craftswomen if not artists (and every now and then I have seen a few high end cakes that do perhaps deserve to be considered art even if they are to be eaten) and I will always uphold the right of the crafter to decide whom they will or will not sell their work product to.
Well, I am not a straight white male. I am female and Roma with lifetime of experience in how businesses discriminate against my people and I have no problem with his position. In fact, I support it much more than yours. Someone does not give up their own right to beliefs or an opinion by opening a business. A private business especially one that falls within the creative arts must have the right to choose it’s customers.
Yes!
[QUOTE=ZPG Zealot]
No, because the grocer is not using his or her own creative talents to creating unique food products to sell. Some bakers do consider themselves craftsman or craftswomen if not artists (and every now and then I have seen a few high end cakes that do perhaps deserve to be considered art even if they are to be eaten) and I will always uphold the right of the crafter to decide whom they will or will not sell their work product to.
[/QUOTE]
And yes!!
Ah, sanity…
You also think shaking hands is rape and adoption is kidnapping, so you’ll forgive me if I don’t give your opinion much weight.
I’m ashamed at how long and hard I laughed at this.
Well, and your opinions on the same subjects tend to be the reason I find your arguments rather useless. However, I am curious would you support the right of the Phelps family to sue a gay baker who refused to bake a cake objectionable to the baker’s beliefs, say a celebration of the killing Mathew Shepard (and Fred Phelps did write in support of that horrific act, so it’s not out of the realm of possibilities that they could celebrate the anniversary)? How about Nazis wanting swastika cakes from a kosher bakery? Is it honestly beyond your comprehension that respect and civility is something all sides must engage in, not just the out groups when confronted with the currently trendy group?
More relevant to this discussion she admittedly refuses services to black people and bemoans the fact she has to make up excuses to do so.
Of course she supports the concept of allowing businesses to refuse service against protected classes. She actively does so.
Is the Phelps family requesting a cake the would make for anyone else? If so make the cake.
I highly doubt the kosher bakery makes swastika cakes for anyone. If the do make swastika cakes they should be legally bared from refusing them based on someone’s protected class status.
Really these hypotheticals designed to try and bait people into hypocritical opinions are getting old, nor are they effective on this issue.
Yeah, they are getting old. I have a new one:)
Maybe I’m just an Elitist Northeasterner, but I’ve been to a lot of weddings and in my experience, wedding cakes aren’t Costco sheet cakes emblazoned with Happy Marriage and Good Luck with your New Life, Adam and Eve. They are typically elaborate tiered affairs with curlicues and roses but nary any text.
So what if Adam and Steve are determined to get their wedding cake from The Leviticus Evangelical Bakery? Suppose Adam just goes in with a female friend and orders their wedding cake without making too much conversation with the person taking the order, letting them assume that his fiancé is a woman. Heck, let’s suppose he even lies to the baker in order to be allowed to buy the cake.
Then, suppose that once said cake has been delivered and the wedding has taken place, that the owner of The Leviticus Evangelical Bakery finds out that his cake was used in a gay wedding. Maybe he sees Adam and Steve feeding each other his heterosexual wedding cake on Facebook.
This would be horrible, right? Adam and Steve used deception to force the poor baker to violate his religious beliefs. It’s almost like they baked cupcakes with pork fat and knowingly served them to a Muslim, right?
Do you think the baker should have any legal remedy against Adam and Steve? If they saved the top tier for their anniversary could they be forced to give it back?
Or do you agree that it would be silly? If you think that would be silly, why would it have been so righteous to refuse to sell them the cake in the first place.
Give us a test case instead of a hypothetical and we can decide it on the merits of the individual circumstances.
The bakers in Oregon were wrong to refuse to sell a cake to those nice ladies, and much much wronger for disseminating their personal information after being called out on it.
Plenty of bakeries, especially of the more artistic variety, advertise that they will recreate any design the customers wants, so this is quite valid and not hypocritical. I have seen plenty divorce party cakes that featured representations of the ex-spouse.
Can you find a slightly less ridiculous equivalency than murder and Nazis?
Several years ago a Basque friend of mine was getting married. He wanted the Basque cross (it’s a sun symbol that looks a lot like a swastika) on the groom’s cake, toothpick flags on cupcakes, and various other places in decoration because he was Basque and rehabilitating his peoples’ cross is a crusade of his. Getting these items made proved rather difficult. Plenty bakeries said, “No way, we don’t care if it’s not a Nazi symbol, it looks like one to us.” He ended up having a cake flown in from an actual Basque-owned bakery out-of-state.
Considering the things the Phelps clan said after Mathew Shepard’s death I don’t find the idea of them celebrating the date that ridiculous. Plenty of my friends have divorce parties, red velvet cakes with a picture of their ex-husband (sorry, it’s always been female friends that do this) screened on to the cake or in few cases a cake shaped like his head are popular. While I think this is good fun, I can easily see how some people including bakers might find this objectionable.
The point is not whether someone might ask for it. The point is whether the request is equivalent from the baker’s point of view. People who celebrate the death of Matthew Shepard do not form a classification that is recognized under the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Nor do Nazis.
I wish him luck in his windmill tilting.
Are you okay with the bakeries refusing to make this cake? It sounds as if he was put through an extra, unneeded level of effort due to the ignorance and prejudice of the bakers who refused his request.
Wouldn’t his wedding day preparations be that much less stressful if he had the cake made locally?
And this is not equivalent to a wedding-cake baker refusing because they do not recognize the legitimacy of the union.
Nor under any civil rights extensions that various localities have enacted since then.
Keep stuffing that straw man. Has anyone been arguing baker’s must create unique creations against their wishes.
If a business willing to create a product they may not limit it’s sales based on someone’s protected class status.
Bakeries are not required to offer cakes depicting people they can choose not to offer them.
If they make Mathew Shepard cakes they don’t get to decide who gets to buy it based on protected class status.
A lot of people are arguing that. Or do you think that a bakery can have some Sara Lee wedding cakes on the shelf and say, “Oh, gay marriage, your cakes are over there next to the frozen strawberries.”?
Wedding cakes are creative endeavors that take craft and skill. Are you of the mind that an artist should be forced to paint a portrait of a SS couple?