Actually, I agree, sculpture is really hard. But not a baker. But still, with a sculptor I think legally they still have to take the commission right? Even if we agree they shouldn’t have too, legally they are obligated, right?
WOW
Fred thinks me an my lover are an ABOMINATION. But we are not. It is only Fred that thinks that.
REAP = SEW
Wow this makes me so mad. Not you, the idea you are putting across. Fred has bigotry and hatred and hostility and condemnation in his heart towards me and my lover. Of course you are going to say well, love the sinner and hate the sin, but how can you love something that you think is an ABOMINATION? Like your retarded uncle who has the mentality of a 3rd grader, you love him, you accept him, but do you really think of him as an equal? No.
Am I exaggerating? Yeah, you betcha I am. I don’t think Fred actually hates me and my lover, but I’m sure he, probably reluctantly, thinks we are an abomination. It hurts when people judge you, when you have been marginalized, when you are already different to begin with. A wedding is supposed to be one of the happiest days of your whole life. Fred needs to give me this one day with no drama. Fred needs to forget about his religious right of free expression and remember his duty as a human to act decently to other people. Even if god does not like gay sex, at the end of the day it is not hurting anyone, god sees stuff he doesn’t like - all the time - one little cake here and there between two gay lovers really isn’t going to hurt god or hurt Fred.
I find it so bizarre that Fred is the one who is acting inappropriately, acting from bigotry, and you want me to nod and say good afternoon then and just leave the shop. Your only concern, it seems, is not making Fred do something Fred doesn’t want to do. But Fred is the source of the problem. Fred is the one who will not treat another human being with decency. And you’re mad because I would use social media or legal persuasion against him?
He’s breaking the law. At this point, I don’t care if he bakes the cake: the department of justice has a lawsuit against him for discriminatory business practices, and he’ll have to pay a fine.
If he does it again, the amount of the fine will increase.
Either he’ll learn to obey the law, or he’ll go out of business.
It isn’t about “forcing him to bake a cake.” It’s about forcing him to obey the law.
You continue to return to very bad examples.
No one is demanding that the artist paints portraits of snakes…only that he cannot agree to paint a portrait of a doggie for a white customer, yet refuse to paint the same portrait for a black customer.
The discrimination is not in the end-product, but the unequal treatment of customers.
You have made this same primitive error a dozen times over, and do not seem to be learning from it. A Jewish deli does not have to offer ham sandwiches. It just can’t offer bagels and lox to Jews, while refusing to sell the same dish to Gentiles.
How many times are you going to repeat this same absurd error?
But Fred is completely free to tell you that he thinks you and your lover are an abomination, so long as he bakes and sells you a cake. At least that is the case in those states where sexual orientation has a protected status.
Government can force a business, under threat of ruinous fines, to engage in commerce. Government cannot force the business to like it or keep the business from telling the customer that they do not want to do business with you and are doing so only under protest.
Fred can go right along judging you. Fred doesn’t have to treat you with decency.
Sociopath: a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.
I find you comments, honestly, the most disturbing of any comment on this thread, possibly of any comment I have ever seen on SDMB. Because you hostility and callousness is just so incredibly casual.
Iggy isn’t being callous, he’s just stating the facts. Fred’s got the same freedom of speech that anyone else has and if he feels like telling his customers how much he despises them or thinks they are going to hell or whatever else he can do that.
However Fred still has to be willing to bake them the same kind of cake he’d bake for anyone else. He does not have to be nice, he just has to provide the same service (so he can’t spit in the cake or frost FUCK YOU!!! all over it).
And if you ran a car-repair shop you would be perfectly free to tell Fred how despicable his religious views are and how you hope his kids are gay and that his dog gets hit by lightning, but you’ve still got to fix his car. You can’t show him the door because of his religious beliefs.
No, because the law is inhumane and must be resisted…
I reject your reality and substitute my own!!!
The comments Iggy made seemed pretty darn callous to me. I’m going to leave it at that, I don’t want to take it further down a path of discord and strife.
…or, are you saying you know Iggy and his posting style and that he’s actually not being callous?
The idea that just because you can do something, you will do something, seems to me both hostile and overbearing.
But why? Why be confrontational? I used to be very confrontational in public, it’s a miracle I never got beat up/got in a fight. I was a jerk, worse than I ever act on here, and I acted that way right in people’s face. I shouldn’t be a jerk here, shouldn’t be so condescending and so hostile and polemic. I really should keep my bias and my bad attitude in check. I don’t. And I know it’s wrong.
But it’s a lot worse to do it in public. I used to be that way. What does it gain? Nothing. All that hostility I had, expressing it just made me feel worse. I just created a worse reality for both parties. Why would we ever want anyone to act that way?
Yes but you can’t resist the BORG.
No, we’re mad because you just can’t except the fact that Fred doesn’t like you, wants nothing to do and nothing you can do will ever change that. It’s almost like your an obsessive-compulsive stalker of Fred. You should leave Fred alone rather than deliberately choosing to put yourself into a position where you will be offended by Fred expressing his opinion (which is his right as a human being to do, no matter how much it hurts your feelings). I’m sure your opinions from time to time hurt other people. The mature and well-behaved among them simply ignore those occasions thinking, “Rick’s entitled to his own opinion as long as he isn’t trying to harm me for expressing mine, I won’t harm him for expressing his.”
There’s probably a lot of people who think like Fred does. There probably even gay people that think you and your lover are an ABOMINATION because of circumstances beyond how you make love. But you know what? who cares. In life you simply cannot please everyone, nor can you require everyone to conform to your desires for there thoughts. The truth is you ought to thank Fred for being honest with you. He knows he could not in good conscience do a proper job making a cake for you. Now you can make fully informed decision to go to another bakery that will happily prepare a lovely cake.
Because some people only understand confrontational. I use to be a lot less confrontational in public for it I got high blood pressure and an early start on a ulcer, After a near nervous breakdown and suicide attempt, I got competent counseling that taught me it was all right to admit my anger and use whatever non-violent techniques worked at reducing it. The most important of those techniques is being honest about my emotions which sometimes means telling people to stay away from me, I just don’t like them. What does it gain? Well, I haven’t had a suicidal impulse in years.
You need to use this as your motto beneath your screen name. 
That’s mighty Christian of Fred.
“Hate the sin, disparage, humiliate and despise the sinner.”
Didn’t God claim the right to do the judging?
Wow! I’m not being sarcastic I think you may have actually changed my mind. I mean that was actually a really really good explanation. Why not let Fred be Fred and I can stop being a victim just because Fred was mean to me. This is as far as I can get: I still think Fred is wrong and acting wrongly but why make it worse by escalating the situation. I’m not on board, not 100%, with let Fred be Fred but I can agree to the idea that escalating the situation won’t do any good. Better to just walkaway and think of being calm instead of thinking of being offended.
Ok well I have to say this makes sense too. And well described as well.
:D:D:D
I say these things as the son of a lesbian. I’ve marched at the front of the Pride parade in a non-welcoming southern state twenty years ago when homosexuality was much less accepted. I’ve met the then-head of the HRC. I sat with Ellen’s mom at a fundraiser. I’m quite in favor of SSM.
You can win legal rights that the government can enforce. But it is much harder to win respect and government can’t enforce respect. Respect comes from within the giver.
Opponent of SSM could write much the same. Why be confrontational? Why not try to find a solution which, as much as possible, accommodates as many as possible? Then, and only then, force the remaining issues in court.
You’re missing the point I’m making by that example. It is not the one you mention above. It goes to forcing someone to use their creativity and craft to work on a thing that they have no feel for. That’s both dumb and distasteful. It’s dumb because you’re expecting someone to apply artistry to something that do not like. It’s distasteful because you’re trying to use the state to force him to do it. You can’t grab someone but the scruff of the neck and say, “Create something you dislike and make it great.”
I’m making a point about artistry and the creative process. People who view themselves as providing an art turn down work all the time, including because, “It’s just not my thing.” They know that if their heart is not in it, the final product will not be anything they are proud of, and might very well suck.