# Should private parties be allowed to rent out public spaces? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-parties-be-allowed-to-rent-out-public-spaces/198569 "2003-08-30T03:54:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Amethyst\_Autumn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@Amethyst\_Autumn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amethyst_Autumn)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-parties-be-allowed-to-rent-out-public-spaces/198569/21 "2003-08-31T05:35:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Waenara \* > **I really don’t see how you can logically have a problem with this situation. You say that your problem is about “usage being restricted to one group and not allowed to others” - but as you’ve admitted, in this particular situation the beach is closed to EVERYONE on Mondays. If the church group hadn’t been there, you still wouldn’t have been allowed to use the beach on that day.** > > But it wasn’t closed to EVERYONE. It was open to that group and closed to everyone else. The rules governing public space should apply to EVERYONE. That wasn’t the case here. > > **I have a similar example - I wonder if you’d find this “immoral” as well. A swimming pool in my community (run by the city - a public pool). There is a “public swim” time on Saturday afternoons (no admission fee) from 2pm to 6pm. The pool is available for private rentals after 6:30pm. If no one chooses to rent the pool on any given Saturday evening, the pool is still closed to EVERYONE. So if you showed up to swim at 7pm you might be turned away because the pool is closed. OR you might be turned away because a private group is renting the pool. Would you say that these people who are renting the pool are “immoral”? After all, according to you they’d be "teach[ing] children that if you have enough money it’s okay do anything with it… that it’s fine to turn away other children from a public beach on a hot day because you want it for yourself."** > > Ye I would. I don’t think public spaces should be rented out to private groups. Ever. A public space BY DEFINITION is by open to the public. Public spaces should not be rented out. What’s to prevent the private group from deciding they want to rent it out during the week? Would that be okay? > > A swimming pool is a scarce community resource. There are other places you can hold a party. > > **Honestly, I don’t see how you have a leg to stand on in this "debate."** > > And I honestly don’t understand why people have no problem with a group of people renting out an entire public beach on a hot summer day solely for their own use. I honestly don’t understand why people are not disturbed by the fact that I was refused access to a public restroom. I honestly don’t understand why the group couldn’t have rented out a SMALL SECTION of the beach without taking the entire place beach for themselves. > > **Having free 24-7 access to a beach is not a constitutional right. You might have a right to complain if the beach is normally open to all on Mondays, but you were turned away because a private group was renting it. But since it normally would have been closed on that day anyways.** > > So it’s wrong for the private group to rent it out when the public normally has access to it . . . but just fine as long as the beach is theoretically closed? Public space should be just that – public. Closed should mean closed to everyone. If they want to charge a small fee on that day I have no problem with it. But I think it’s totally inappropriate to rent out an entire public beach to a private group. That’s a misuse of public space. > > Closed or not a private group should NEVER be allowed to reserve the use of a beach for their own sole usage. I would have been disturbed by this policy any day of the week. > > \*\*I can understand how it would be a bummer, a disappointment, and an inconvenience to find that the beach is closed on a hot day. But really, you have no one but yourself to blame if you neglected to check the beach’s schedule to see if it was going to be open. \*\* > > I just moved here recently and it truly never occured to me that a public beach would be closed any day during the summer. This is actually the first community I’ve ever come across where the beach was closed. Every other public park I’ve ever been to is open from dawn to dusk. > > I still stand by my point. A public beach should be open to all or closed to all. The rules shouldn’t be bent because you have the money to override them. > > I’m also still in shock that the camp leaders wouldn’t even let me use a public bathroom. What kind of rocks do you crawl under to find people with minds like that? ---
**Author:** ![Amethyst\_Autumn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@Amethyst\_Autumn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amethyst_Autumn)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-parties-be-allowed-to-rent-out-public-spaces/198569/22 "2003-08-31T05:41:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Seriously, in this world, if you have enough money, you CAN buy things that other people cannot. I would love dearly to own an authentic Faberge egg. I can’t afford it. Some people can. Is that “fair?” \*\* But should some things be for sale? Does everything always have a price? Like most people, I have no expectation of owning a Faberge egg. I do have an expectation that I will be able to use a public beach. I certainly never thought I would be refused access to a public restroom. Is that “fair”? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-parties-be-allowed-to-rent-out-public-spaces/198569/23 "2003-08-31T05:46:40Z")
What exactly is it about the laws or ordinances governing the use of publicly-owned facilities, Amethyst? You are routinely refused admittance to that public beach on Mondays. You told us that yourself. That facility is therefore made available for private use on that day of the week. The monies generated presumably go to paying for the additional maintenance and staffing required. You are also routinely refused admittance to the public government buildings after hours. You are routinely refused services therein after the posted working horus. In short, you have nothing to complain about. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-parties-be-allowed-to-rent-out-public-spaces/198569/24 "2003-08-31T06:22:10Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Amethyst Autumn_ > **I don’t think public spaces should be rented out to private groups. Ever. A public space BY DEFINITION is by open to the public. Public spaces should not be rented out. What’s to prevent the private group from deciding they want to rent it out during the week? Would that be okay?** I see several problems with this statement: 1. Public spaces may be, generally, open to the public. But they are not ALWAYS open. They must be closed at some time. There are very few public spaces that are open (and staffed) 24-7. Therefore, if a private group wishes to use a public space during a time _when it would normally be closed_ - then what’s the issue? As long as they’re paying for the added expense of keeping the facility open at a time outside of it’s regular hours, they’re not just sponging off the system. 2. I think you’re seeing a “slippery slope” that, frankly, doesn’t exist. Nearly all public facilities in my city (city owned and operated) can be available for private rental under certain circumstances. However, this does not mean that the city is going to convert them to fully private facilities. In fact, occasionally renting out space is an excellent source of revenue to ensure that the public space stays public for the majority of the time. 3. (This isn’t _directly_ related to the above quote, but…) I’m wondering why you posted this in Great Debates. I don’t see that you’re interested in listening to any debate here. You just brush off everyone else’s points with “well, I don’t think it’s right.” And that’s fine. But maybe this would have been better off in IMHO - if you wanted a poll to see what other people’s opinions on the topic are. I would like to add, that I think that it was unkind that the people renting the beach didn’t allow you to use the bathroom facilities. Many public beaches/parks have very few bathrooms, with no nearby buildings or businesses with bathrooms to use. Although they might not have been “required” to let you use the bathroom, it would have been the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![SunTzu2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@SunTzu2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunTzu2U)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-parties-be-allowed-to-rent-out-public-spaces/198569/25 "2003-08-31T06:55:51Z")
Our city has several public golf courses which are closed on mondays. Still, they can be rented out for tournaments on mondays and are quite often. The course gets extra dollars to maintain the facilities and a group of people get to use the course in exchange. It is a public space BUT no one plays there on monday EXCEPT in this situation. The same reasoning should be held with the lake issue. Come back on Tuesday and enjoy the beach. Today (Monday) we are closed. If you have a problem with this then go talk to your local representative about changing the policy. I don’t think you are going to get anywhere with them though because opening the park 7 days a week runs up the operating costs while only opening it up for paying parties covers the cost and maybe makes a little too. Hey here’s a thought; rent it out yourself some monday! ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-parties-be-allowed-to-rent-out-public-spaces/198569/26 "2003-08-31T07:50:18Z")
Is there an argument here other than “I don’t think it’s right” or are we working in circles? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-parties-be-allowed-to-rent-out-public-spaces/198569/27 "2003-08-31T12:18:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Ye I would. I don’t think public spaces should be rented out to private groups. Ever. A public space BY DEFINITION is by open to the public. Public spaces should not be rented out. What’s to prevent the private group from deciding they want to rent it out during the week? Would that be okay? What prevents the private group from deciding they want to rent it out during the week are the rules that no doubt limit the rentals to Mondays. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that the _reason_ the beach is closed on Mondays is to allow rentals to groups. But about no rentals of public space, ever - really? No rentals pf baseball fields , hockey rinks , football fields , golf courses , tracks etc? Find a place that doesn’t rent these, ever and it will either be a place that has no organized sports or a place where every Little League is wealthy enough to own it’s own baseball fields. ---
**Author:** ![Amethyst\_Autumn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@Amethyst\_Autumn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amethyst_Autumn)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-parties-be-allowed-to-rent-out-public-spaces/198569/28 "2003-08-31T23:15:08Z")
**But maybe this would have been better off in IMHO - if you wanted a poll to see what other people’s opinions on the topic are.** Got it. 😉 I _have_ attempted to talk to my community leaders but they’re all vacation right now. And I’ve also learned which camp my child will not be attending so the day was useful for something. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-parties-be-allowed-to-rent-out-public-spaces/198569/29 "2003-09-01T23:01:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Amethyst Autumn \* > And I’ve also learned which camp my child will not be attending so the day was useful for something. \*\* Yeah that will show them:rolleyes: Look…there’s nothing wrong with the town renting out public spaces one day a week. The only issue here is that you feel some kind of Al Bundy-esq rage over being told that you can’t use it that day. The bathroom thing might be a legitimate complaint except that maybe the people who rented the park might not want to pay to have people coming in and out of their event to take a shit. Restaurant bathrooms are public too but they aren’t generally opened to people right off the street. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-parties-be-allowed-to-rent-out-public-spaces/198569/30 "2003-09-02T00:13:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Amethyst Autumn \* > \*\* They also could have reserved PART of the beach for themselves. Instead they used the entire beach. \*\* And left the rest of it vacant? 😕 What good would that have done? > [@](#): > > \*\*What good is the message that a public space is for rent only if you have enough money? \*\* It’s an eminently reasonable message. There are many things in life that you can only do if you have enough money. Renting a facility when it is closed to the general public is one of them. > [@](#): > > \*\*They most certainly WERE given that message. We were literally shooed off the beach by the camp director. There was nobody else on the beach but that group. > > The children are being told they can circumvent rules if they have enough money. Nobody else can use the beach on Mondays but them. There is something wrong about telling children that rules are good for other people but do not apply if you have enough money. \*\* Oh, for God’s sake. . . . I assure you, the kids were having too much fun splashing around to philosphise about the privledges of having money. In sincerely doubt that any of them noticed you, or even if they did, gave it a second thought. After all, \*they weren’t doing anything wrong. \* They weren’t circumventing any rules. They were playing by them. > [@](#): > > \*\*I saw the buses the children used. They were from a local religious camp used by quite a few affluent parents. > > And even if the children were from a poor camp a more appropriate day for that trip would have been a day when the rest of the public was using the beach. \*\* Some people have other opinions of what’s “appropriate” and that’s maybe why they needed to swim when the general public wasn’t there. I went to a Christian school, which occasionally booked the pool at the YMCA after hours so the kids could swim. The reason being that the kids wouldn’t have to be around who might be acting in un-Christian ways. For a lot of these kids, their parents wouldn’t let them go to the “Y” during normal business hours because of “what they might see.” The only way they were able to swim was during one of these Christian events. It’s also easier to keep track of a large group of children on an empty beach. Parents trust that this day camp will keep their kids safe and ensure that they behave. It would be horribly easy to lose track of a child in a large crowd of people. This way, the counselors could keep an eye on the kids, and not have to worry about strangers. (Which is probably why you were forbidden use of the bathrooms.) > [@](#): > > \*\*Life may not be fair. But my government should not be in the business of making it less fair. \*\* I agree, but there’s nothing unfair about the situation. > [@](#): > > \*\*What exactly would you use taxes for then? Maintance of common green spaces like public beaches and parks are precisely the sort of areas most people prefer to have their tax dollars finance. \*\* As do I, but unfortunately the money that each individual agency gets from my tax dollars isn’t always enough. That’s why I support the notion of using the facility to earn extra money when it won’t inconvenience the public. > [@](#): > > \*\*Furthermore I doubt they were getting a lot of money that day. And even if they were it’s not a smart move to tell some taxpayers they can’t use the beach because others have rented it out. \*\* It’s no different from telling them, “The beach is closed.” Even if they only earned $100 for the day (which I think is a very low estimate) \* it was more than they usually get per day. \* > [@](#): > > \*\*But a fiscal standpoint is not the only standpoint government must represent. How is smarter to restrict all land use in an area to private usage? Do you believe in any public parks at all? \*\* Of course I do. But I’m also willing to accept that just because something is public doesn’t mean that it must always be available for my use. > [@](#): > > \*\*Park officials are servants of the public. They don’t magnanimously grant people anything out the goodness of their hearts. \*\* Again, you’re missing the point. If your city decided to, they could totally cut the budget for the beach, or sell it off to the highest bidder. They \* could \* do that if the budget became too tight to support it any longer. Instead, they have decided to make room in the budget, juggling other parks, city services and projects in order to try to keep everything available. What these public servants do is try to nake everything work on increasingly tighter budgets. I assure you that sacrifices in other areas have had to be made in order to keep this beach open and free for the public. Instead of the public being grateful for all of the hard work and dedication that goes into ensuring that these resources will be available to them, public servants get nothing but gripes and complaints. > [@](#): > > \*\*And besides you couldn’t pay the fee because the beach wasn’t open that day to everyone. If they wanted to charge a fee one day a week I would have no problem with it. But let everyone pay the fee and not just a small group of people. \*\* But what about those poor children you brought up earlier? How unfair it would be for them to be unable to use the beach because they don’t have the money for it! Didn’t you say, “A public beach should not be for sale?” > [@](#): > > \*\*Again a) I doubt the camp was paying a lot of money and b) believe me my local community isn’t losing huge amounts of money administering the beach. There are basically four workers there: two lifeguards and two people in the food court. Considering the over inflated prices of the food served there I’d be surprised if the city wasn’t actually making a small profit. \*\* If they are making a profit, good for them. It will help to pay for improvements, and for other park projects around the city. However, I have my doubts that they are making a profit. There are myriad other costs involved other than just the payroll, after all. I’m sorry, but I sthink your stance is unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-parties-be-allowed-to-rent-out-public-spaces/198569/31 "2003-09-02T00:29:01Z")
When in Beijing last year, I was refused entry to Chairman Mao’s tomb as the facility was rented out for a private party. It remains unreported if the Great Helmsman was spinning in his coffin at the thought. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-private-parties-be-allowed-to-rent-out-public-spaces/198569.md?page=1)