# Should professors instruct students in what opinions to hold? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2015, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577 "2015-09-01T04:20:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/21 "2015-09-01T16:10:19Z")
It’s not just a seduction community issue. “Male” and “female” used as nouns are common in the law enforcement and military communities precisely because they are alienating and distancing and tend to de-emphasize the humanity of the people being talked about, in a way that “man” and “woman” do not. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/22 "2015-09-01T16:11:10Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Why are the terms male/female ‘oppressive and hateful language’ but men/women is ok? The professor hasn’t forbidden the terms male/female _in general_, she’s forbidden students from referring to people as “females” or “males.” “A woman” = OK. “A female student” = OK. “A female” = not OK. (At best, the last use is slangy and not really appropriate for academic discourse; at worst, it’s often used when people are making sweeping, disparaging generalizations about an entire gender.) ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/23 "2015-09-01T16:43:57Z")
I have trouble thinking of my 3 year old great nieces as “women”. “Females”, I can, easily. “Girls” is even easier. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/24 "2015-09-01T16:51:25Z")
Yeah, I’m pretty sure the use being avoided is along the lines of “…we were having soda and then a female walked in and X, Y, Z.” I don’t know if it’s exactly hateful, but it is pretty obnoxious. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/25 "2015-09-01T17:09:09Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I have trouble thinking of my 3 year old great nieces as “women”. “Females”, I can, easily. “Girls” is even easier. Who is being prohibited from using “girls” when that’s appropriate? “Females” and “males” can be quite hostile, especially when you’re discussing social issues. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/26 "2015-09-01T17:14:37Z")
I’m trying to think of an instance in fiction or reality when a woman was addressed as “female” or referenced as “a female”, in both cases using the word as a noun, that WASN’T intended to sound obnoxious or stilted, and none come to mind. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/27 "2015-09-01T17:19:00Z")
Controlling language in an attempt to control thought is disgusting. It would be funny that factual terms like “illegal immigrant” is considered “hate speech” if there weren’t a dangerous critical mass of zealots that can ruin peoples lives for speaking accurately. And what is this racist nonsense of deferring to people of color? Is there a unique and valid point of view intrinsic to skin tone? ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/28 "2015-09-01T17:39:14Z")
So you people consistently refer to black adolescents as “boy” and “boys” and no one raises an eyebrow? Where do you people live, 1955? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/29 "2015-09-01T17:39:55Z")
I would say No, they shouldn’t. But that isn’t what the professor is doing. He is outlawing hate speech, which is different from expressing an opinion. The difference is that opinions come from someone with the right to speak, like a black person or a Latina or someone who is LGBTQ. Hate speech comes from white males. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/30 "2015-09-01T18:03:36Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Yeah, I’m pretty sure the use being avoided is along the lines of “…we were having soda and then a female walked in and X, Y, Z.” I don’t know if it’s exactly hateful, but it is pretty obnoxious. It’s a bit like someone today deliberately using “negro” to refer to black people. It’s not incorrect, and it’s not technically disparaging… but it does make you wonder if there’s an agenda there. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/31 "2015-09-01T18:08:17Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Elsewhere, Professor Selena Breikss [instructs her students](https://ccgrs.wsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/48/2015/08/20153_Breikss.pdf) thatUse of racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic, classist, or generally offensive language in class or submission of such material will not be tolerated. (This includes “The Man,” “Colored People", “Illegals/Illegal Aliens,” “Tranny” and so on - or referring to women/men as females or males) … Repeated use of oppressive and hateful language will be handled accordingly – including but not limited to removal from the class without attendance or participation points, failure of the assignment, and - in extreme cases - failure for the semester. Good job poisoning the well. What the ellipses in your quote omit is “If I see it or hear it, I will correct it in class since it can be a learning moment for many students.” Which is to say that the use of these words, how they are offensive, how they limit discussion and/or understanding of the topics, et al. will be discussed in class. So, per the syllabus, if you were shocked and confused to see that the use of “females” and “males” was offensive, you are entitled to raise your hand and ask why. The professor says that it will be a good learning experience for everyone. (And, if you inject common sense into it, you can see that the use of females and males is not strictly prohibited, but is not allowed in this class when referring to men and women. Admittedly, this took me aback at first. But then I gave it some thought. I doubt this professor has a problem with somebody describing the female panda they saw at the zoo, but she recognizes that it can be hostile to refer to women as “females”, because it leaves unstated that they are not people, the same way that calling black people “blacks”, or illegal immigrants “illegals” removes their humanness from the description.) ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/32 "2015-09-01T18:19:41Z")
Yes if the professors are liberal, no if they are not ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/33 "2015-09-01T18:27:58Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > There’s a bit of a kerfuffle rising at Washington State University after various websites shone a light on certain statements appearing in course syllabi. For example, Professor John Streamas in his syllabus for Introduction to Multicultural Literature, instructs his students to “Reflect your grasp of history and social relations by respecting shy and quiet classmates, and by deferring to the experiences of people of color.” Now according to my dictionary, defer means “to submit respectfully in judgment or opinion.” In other words, this instruction would seem to require that students not of color must accept the judgment of students of color. > > Isn’t the entire point of class discussion to have different viewpoints brought up, debated, and challenged? Doesn’t the idea of the professor declaring who’s right based on skin color kind of undermine the very idea of a discussion? Doesn’t cherry-picking parts of a [syllabus](https://ccgrs.wsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/48/2015/08/20153_CES220_Streamas.pdf) (PDF) undermine its intended message? [QUOTE=The syllabus] Ideally, each class meeting will be a lively, student-directed discussion of our course material. Short of that ideal, I will try to lecture as little as possible. I hope we will model a “good” community, driven by shared concerns even when we disagree. [/QUOTE] This professor is encouraging disagreement and lively discussion. Isn’t that what you are pining for? [QUOTE=More from the syllabus] Feel free to disagree, respectfully. Consider others’ views. Reflect on your own social location, your privileges and power. [/QUOTE] Hmmm…more encouragement to challenge ideas, expressly disagree, and respect the thoughts of others. Why, this professor might actually be inviting a respectful discussion on a potentially difficult topic! [QUOTE=ITR Champion] Note on language: In our books we may read some words or phrases that will be, to some sensibilities, coarse or vulgar or racist. By themselves, no “mere” words are offensive. What makes a word vulgar or racist is its usage by a particular speaker in a particular context. Insensitive whites such as Glenn Beck complain that, for example, they are not allowed to say the “n” word without being labeled racist but that black men use it among themselves all the time. To “earn” the right to that word, Beck must first endure 500 years of racism. [/QUOTE] Again, why have you deleted part of the paragraph? What is missing is the end [QUOTE=The Syllabus, yet again] When you see such words in our books, consider their context. Who speaks them? Why? And to whom? [/QUOTE] Is the professor telling the students what to think, or is the professor asking questions about the reading material, which he wants the students to consider as a prompt for later class discussion? And why all of this race-based rhetoric, anyway? Why should this class be so pre-occupied with the experiences of minorities, and why should it caution students from privileged backgrounds to consider their prejudices and temper their assumptions? Perhaps it’s because [QUOTE=Again with the syllabus] Our purpose is to read, study, discuss, and write about U.S. literature by writers of color and by white writers concerned with racism. [/QUOTE] Shocking that a class who’s objective is to read and discuss racism in literature should be so preoccupied with race and prejudice! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/34 "2015-09-01T18:50:19Z")
There sure is a lot of hypersensitivity to other people’s hypersensitivity. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/35 "2015-09-01T19:08:48Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Controlling language in an attempt to control thought is disgusting. It would be funny that factual terms like “illegal immigrant” is considered “hate speech” if there weren’t a dangerous critical mass of zealots that can ruin peoples lives for speaking accurately. “Illegal immigrant” wasn’t in the syllabus, actually, just “illegals” and “illegal aliens”. > [@octopus](#): > > And what is this racist nonsense of deferring to people of color? Is there a unique and valid point of view intrinsic to skin tone? It didn’t say to defer to people of color, it said to defer _to the experiences_ of people of color, which isn’t at all the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/36 "2015-09-01T19:34:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It didn’t say to defer to people of color, it said to defer _to the experiences_ of people of color, which isn’t at all the same thing. Exactly, because the black guy who killed those reporters should never have been challenged when he allegedly “experienced” racism, right? His “experience” was inherently MORE VALID than whatever his white co-workers “experienced,” right? Do you honestly not see why teaching students that nonsense is pernicious? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/37 "2015-09-01T19:41:57Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Exactly, because the black guy who killed those reporters should never have been challenged when he allegedly “experienced” racism, right? His “experience” was inherently MORE VALID than whatever his white co-workers “experienced,” right? > > Do you honestly not see why teaching students that nonsense is pernicious? For what it’s worth, I honestly don’t see your point, unless it’s just to express some kind of hyperbolic outrage. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/38 "2015-09-01T19:45:29Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Exactly, because the black guy who killed those reporters should never have been challenged when he allegedly “experienced” racism, right? His “experience” was inherently MORE VALID than whatever his white co-workers “experienced,” right? > > Do you honestly not see why teaching students that nonsense is pernicious? Which is why the professor probably isn’t teaching that nonsense. Nowhere in the class syllabus is an instruction that views shouldn’t be challenged (in fact, the opposite is true) or that white people’s experiences aren’t valid. It seems that you are hung up on the word “defer”. But, [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) includes as a [definition](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/defer) "to yield respectfully in judgment or opinion ". Put simply, the use of defer is an admonishment to show respect to another person’s experiences. In a class focused on racism, it is sensible to remind the students that a minority person’s description of racism should be listened to, carefully considered, and not quickly dismissed. If you didn’t presume that there was a hidden agenda in the class, would that really seem pernicious to you? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/39 "2015-09-01T19:47:46Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Exactly, because the black guy who killed those reporters should never have been challenged when he allegedly “experienced” racism, right? His “experience” was inherently MORE VALID than whatever his white co-workers “experienced,” right? > > Do you honestly not see why teaching students that nonsense is pernicious? This is a really good point, because as we know, charges of racism in the workplace are exactly the same as discussions of race in a classroom setting, and need to be handled in exactly the same manner. Also, any discussion of any form of human interaction needs to start from the assumption that one of the parties involved is violently insane, otherwise any conclusions reached by the discussion are automatically invalid. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/40 "2015-09-01T19:49:31Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Good Og, **ITR** , do you not comprehend that the nouns “male” and “female” depersonalize the individual being written about? The point of multicultural studies is to see people, not stereotypes. It has nothing to do with ignoring the existence of gender. If this is satire, it’s the best and driest damn satire I’ve ever read. Kudos. If you’re actually serious, I loathe the ideas you’re explaining and spit on them. “Male” and “Female” are perfectly acceptable words and not even remotely depersonalizing. That said, I’m willing to bet you pulled off the best damn straight-faced satire I’ve ever read on the SDMB. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577.md?page=3)