# Should professors instruct students in what opinions to hold? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2015, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577 "2015-09-01T04:20:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/121 "2015-09-03T10:21:02Z")
I just want to do what the liberals on this board tell me to do. Are 18-year-old females women or girls? What about high school seniors? College freshmen (sic)? I want to get this straight. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/122 "2015-09-03T13:06:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your experience as a mugged person backs up your opinion, if you have indeed been mugged. Someone who has experienced anti-black racism as a black person has experience that backs up their opinion. My experience as a victim of black crime backs up my opinion of black crime to the same degree as my experience of being mugged backs up my opinion of muggings. Thus, if you want to be consistent, my opinion of black crime ought to be considered just as valid as my experience of mugging. It is based on an equal weight of experience. Unless people are subject to confirmation bias and selective perception, in which case one ought not to give their opinions based on experience more weight than they deserve. Unless backed up by objective evidence. > [@Robert163](#): > > At the same time, I haven’t found any specific case, ie, female, thug, illegals, etc, where the “PC police” are saying a word has negative connotations that doesn’t actually have negative connotations, at least i some (rising) applications. I would be hard-pressed to come up with a word that never had negative connotations. What we are talking about is words with a _necessary_ negative connotation, used in circumstances where the negative connotation is irrelevant or untrue. The word “females” does not, AFAICT, have any necessary negative connotation. So if you need an example of a word outlawed by the “PC police” for no good reason, I would say “females” qualifies. An example of the other aspect of negative connotation where it is irrelevant is the professor’s attempt to outlaw use of the term “illegals” or “illegal aliens”. Here it is quite true that the term carries a negative connotation. However, in discussions of immigration policy, using the term “illegal alien” is necessary and appropriate because it is more precise and more expressive. It is probably true that people who refer to illegal aliens as illegal aliens are expressing a negative opinion of those who are in the country illegally. But that is not irrelevant - pointing out that they are here illegally is much of the point in such discussions. Softening it with some euphemism like “undocumented workers” or whatever is a way of minimizing an argument that is based on the undoubted fact that illegal aliens are in the US in violation of our law. Attempting to force someone to use a less precise term is a way of trivializing the point. We have had on the SDMB a similar discussion on the use of the word “thug”, which the PC police say is bad to apply to black criminals (although it is OK to use it against white ones). If it is wrong to call a criminal a “thug” because it has a negative connotation, then it should be wrong to call a person a “thug” whether he is white or black. If it is not wrong to call a person a “thug” even if it has a negative connotation, then it is not wrong to call a person a “thug”. And if you can’t call a black criminal a thug because “thug” has been used as a racist insult, then you can’t call a black criminal anything, because anything has been used as a racist insult at some time or other. The solution being, obviously, to call a spade a spade ( 🙂 ). In rational discourse, one avoids the terms that are racist by general consensus, and resist the efforts by the PC police to exclude white males, or any other group, from the communal experience of deciding what the consensus of language is. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/123 "2015-09-03T13:43:43Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I think people are making this way too complicated. The rules should be fairly simple and not sound like they were written by a drunk pro-bono lawyer from a 5th rate law school. The SDMB gets it mostly right with its basic rules. Colleges should be able to do almost as well. > > The Professor should have written the class discussion rules much more simply and broadly: > > 1. Don’t be a jerk > 2. Don’t interrupt others when they have the forum floor > 3. Racial, ethic and blatantly sexist slurs are not allowed unless they are being discussed intentionally as part of the class. > 4. Maintain basic respect of all ideas presented in class even if you do not immediately agree with them. You will be given opportunities to give dissent in some form. > 5. The Professor is always the moderator of any discussions and moderator orders must be adhered to or there will be consequences. > 6. When in doubt, see rule #1. > > You can add or subtract to those as you see fit but that should be the basic set of rules for adults in any discussion or seminar class. There is no need to make it more complicated. I went to undergrad and grad school not all that long ago and none of my professors pulled any of this bullshit on me. We knew the basic rules and hardly anyone ever violated them. That is why it is a mystery to people like me why people feel the need to micro-manage speech down to the extremely detailed but very arbitrary level today. It isn’t ever going to work because most people get confused about what you are even talking about in the first place let alone what the overall goal is. I totally agree with all of this. It does seem like these instructors put topics, arguments, and opinions better suited to class discussion and interspersed them into the syllabus. It was unnecessary and poorly drafted. The profs would have been better suited stating on day one (when the drop/add period was still ongoing), “This class is going to discuss…, and is predicated on the belief that…and will challenge conventional ideas regarding…Now, let’s discuss what I consider Hate Speech”, rather than write a lecture into an outline of rules, procedures, and scheduling. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/124 "2015-09-03T13:45:38Z")
Can I respectfully ask that I not be referred to as “female”? I am a woman, and more importantly, I am human. Is that OK? Is my personal dislike of the term OK? No, I know it’s not - certain of you will continue to call me female or really anything else you like. However, just as you have every right to say it, I have every right not to like it and not to engage with you. The real “PC police” are the ones who think being respectful to others is tantamount to kneeling down and bowing to them. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/125 "2015-09-03T14:29:30Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Can I respectfully ask that I not be referred to as “female”? I am a woman, and more importantly, I am human. Okay. But I still get to call guys “males,” because I am one and it’s OK when we say it to each other. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/126 "2015-09-03T15:22:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > My experience as a victim of black crime backs up my opinion of black crime to the same degree as my experience of being mugged backs up my opinion of muggings. Thus, if you want to be consistent, my opinion of black crime ought to be considered just as valid as my experience of mugging. It is based on an equal weight of experience. Fine with me. ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/127 "2015-09-03T16:09:39Z")
Let me try and put it like this. What pieces of information are contained in the word “male” or “female?” The only assertions that the term makes are sexual ones - that a thing possesses the characteristic of sex, and moreover that it possesses one and not the other sub-type. A woman is female, as is a baby girl, as is a dam, as is a baby girl horse, as is a ship, as is - in German at least - a turnip. They are bound together only by their female-ness, and by extension by their not-male-ness. Conversely, what pieces of information are contained in the word “man” or “woman?” For the first part, they contain an element of humanity. A 30-year-old female human, a 3-year-old female human, a 10-year-old female horse, a 6-month-old female horse, a ship, and a German turnip all contain that essential element of female-ness and not-male-ness, but only the first two - only the two humans - contain humanity. Second, “man” and “woman” contain an element of adulthood, of competence and independence. The line between childhood and adulthood might be a little fuzzy if you’re referring to someone who’s 16 or 18 or even 20, but there’s no doubt that 30-year-olds are adults and 3-year-olds aren’t. So calling a person a “woman” confers two elements onto them - quite important elements, of being a human being and of being an adult - that simply calling them a “female” doesn’t. Calling someone a “female,” noun form, reduces them to their biological sex, omitting - and perhaps, depending on context, denying - any element of humanity or of adulthood. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/128 "2015-09-03T16:23:59Z")
> [@](#): > > What pieces of information are contained in the word “male” or “female?” The only assertions that the term makes are sexual ones - that a thing possesses the characteristic of sex, and moreover that it possesses one and not the other sub-type. A woman is female, as is a baby girl, as is a dam, as is a baby girl horse, as is a ship, as is - in German at least - a turnip. They are bound together only by their female-ness, and by extension by their not-male-ness. Somebody better tell Kaitlin Jenner. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/129 "2015-09-03T16:33:49Z")
Don’t have her phone number, wanna give it to me? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/130 "2015-09-03T17:52:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I would be hard-pressed to come up with a word that never had negative connotations. What we are talking about is words with a _necessary_ negative connotation, used in circumstances where the negative connotation is irrelevant or untrue. > > The word “females” does not, AFAICT, have any necessary negative connotation. So if you need an example of a word outlawed by the “PC police” for no good reason, I would say “females” qualifies. No, we are talking about words with a marginal negative connotation that can be used by bigoted people as code language wink wink. Pretending that we are debating whether the word has a necessary negative connotation is highly dishonest. > [@](#): > > An example of the other aspect of negative connotation where it is irrelevant is the professor’s attempt to outlaw use of the term “illegals” or “illegal aliens”. Here it is quite true that the term carries a negative connotation. However, in discussions of immigration policy, using the term “illegal alien” is necessary and appropriate because it is more precise and more expressive. It is probably true that people who refer to illegal aliens as illegal aliens are expressing a negative opinion of those who are in the country illegally. But that is not irrelevant - pointing out that they are here illegally is much of the point in such discussions. Softening it with some euphemism like “undocumented workers” or whatever is a way of minimizing an argument that is based on the undoubted fact that illegal aliens are in the US in violation of our law. Attempting to force someone to use a less precise term is a way of trivializing the point. Illegal and undocumented are equally precise. Undocumented is softer. It’s use contains a bias. So does illegal. Given the choice between the two, there is nothing wrong with a more diplomatic approach. Insistence on using the term illegal to be “more truthful” is really just an thinly veiled excuse to be condescending. > [@](#): > > We have had on the SDMB a similar discussion on the use of the word “thug”, which the PC police say is bad to apply to black criminals (although it is OK to use it against white ones). If it is wrong to call a criminal a “thug” because it has a negative connotation, then it should be wrong to call a person a “thug” whether he is white or black. If it is not wrong to call a person a “thug” even if it has a negative connotation, then it is not wrong to call a person a “thug”. And if you can’t call a black criminal a thug because “thug” has been used as a racist insult, then you can’t call a black criminal anything, because anything has been used as a racist insult at some time or other. Except, deliberate use of the word in a negative connotation by the right wing hate brigade is changing the connotation of the term. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/131 "2015-09-03T18:12:02Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Now you are just getting carried away. It is _depersonalizing_, in a way that is inappropriate for the class. The teacher is not saying it is genuinely offensive overall, just that it should not be used that way in the class. So it’s depersonalizing but not offensive? And what the teacher actually said, according to the OP (I haven’t looked at the actual syllabus) was: “Use of racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic, classist, or generally offensive language in class or submission of such material will not be tolerated. (This includes “The Man,” “Colored People”, “Illegals/Illegal Aliens,” “Tranny” and so on - or referring to women/men as females or males)…" ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/132 "2015-09-03T18:31:56Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > No, we are talking about words with a marginal negative connotation that can be used by bigoted people as code language wink wink. Pretending that we are debating whether the word has a necessary negative connotation is highly dishonest. No, it’s not. We **are** debating whether it has a necessary negative connotation. One side is asserting that it does, and attempting to disallow an opinion to the contrary. _That’s_ dishonest. > [@](#): > > Illegal and undocumented are equally precise. No, they are not. It’s like describing a burglary as an “uninvited entry”. > [@](#): > > Except, deliberate use of the word in a negative connotation by the right wing hate brigade is changing the connotation of the term. You’re begging the question. Referring to criminals as “thugs” expresses the connotation of the term “thug”. Telling people what they mean when they use the term of a black criminal, and not when they do of a white one, is the attempt to change the connotation. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/133 "2015-09-03T19:15:50Z")
Where did that “necessary” come from? Language and interpersonal exchanges are not math. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/134 "2015-09-03T22:33:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it’s not. We **are** debating whether it has a necessary negative connotation. One side is asserting that it does, and attempting to disallow an opinion to the contrary. > > _That’s_ dishonest. > No, they are not. It’s like describing a burglary as an “uninvited entry”. You’re begging the question. Referring to criminals as “thugs” expresses the connotation of the term “thug”. Telling people what they mean when they use the term of a black criminal, and not when they do of a white one, is the attempt to change the connotation. > > Regards, > Shodan No, actually, what we are debating is the reluctance of people with your position to “not be told what to say”. That is what we are debating. What winds up happening is we have debates with pages and pages, hundreds of responses, on whether or not female or thug can have a negative connotation but the real debate is “don’t tell me what to say”. Let’s be honest, that is the real debate. Your analysis of the Thug situation is completely wrong. The whole debacle two (?) years ago with Richard Sherwin proves it. His trash talking after games is quite animated. After a particularly heated session post game interview the whole social media and traditional media BLEW UP the next day. That next day there were more references to thug in the media than there had been in the whole 365 days previous. I’ll be glad to try and look that statistic up if you want. You want to know something, when I saw the clip, you know what I thought, I thought “whoa, that’s one angry black dude!”. And then caught myself and realized I was being racist. I mean the dude sounded really angry but it was just trash talk. But white people being angry are labeled/treated differently than black people. So, you can’t deny, given that incident that - thug - is beginning to take on racist connotations that have nothing at all to do with crime. To pretend otherwise is just being dishonest. To say, well, the _general_ meaning of the word thug is so and so is just evading the point, that, it is starting to have a new, sinister, racist connotation. Any honest discussion must acknowledge this fact. Here is the ironic point: when he is not trash talking, Richard Sherwin is incredibly articulate. He was raised in the projects, true by his own admission that I saw in a documentary about him. But he graduated from Stanford and when not trash talking he is incredibly articulate and pleasant and well informed. For the media to label him a thug is 100% wrong. But I doubt this incident will do anything to change your mind about the appropriateness of the word thug. The real debate is “don’t tell us how to talk!!!”. I like talking to you Shodan, I really actually do, but can we not at least be honest about what the debate is actually about. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/135 "2015-09-03T23:58:42Z")
Richard Sher **ma** n. There might be some dispute on this point, but “thug” is thought to originate from Hindi, by way of Sanskrit – a land of typically rather dark-skinned people. Thus, it has a racial component already embedded in it. Yes, it has been used in the past for white men, but since all the racist epithets for black people have gradually been trampled under foot, “thug” has begun to re-acquire the darker subtext of its origins. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/136 "2015-09-04T00:05:50Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > What winds up happening is we have debates with pages and pages, hundreds of responses, on whether or not female or thug can have a negative connotation but the real debate is “don’t tell me what to say”. Let’s be honest, that is the real debate. … That sounds accurate to me. I’m trying to think of any instance of someone using the terms “politically correct” or “PC” to mean something other than _‘these uppity second-classers are trying to control me, and I won’t stand for it–they need to be put back in their proper place’_… ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/137 "2015-09-04T00:08:10Z")
The basic rule of college is just shut up and pretend to agree with the proff. They can make your life miserable if you dont. The last thing a university professor wants is an open minded discussion where people feel open to share their thoughts. Nowadays you can go on social media and express your true feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/138 "2015-09-04T01:52:01Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Can you provide an example of “Male” and “Female” being used in a way that “Man and Woman” would not be exactly synonymous? Our tour group next visited the orangutan enclosure, but then one of the females became very upset and screamed at our tour guide. Our tour group next visited the orangutan enclosure, but then one of the women became very upset and screamed at our tour guide. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/139 "2015-09-04T04:44:17Z")
> [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](#): > > Our tour group next visited the orangutan enclosure, but then one of the females became very upset and screamed at our tour guide. > > Our tour group next visited the orangutan enclosure, but then one of the women became very upset and screamed at our tour guide. Both of those are offensive. The crazy bitch shouldn’t be going on wildlife tours if she is going to flip out and start screaming at people for no reason. I never want her in any tour group that I am involved in. Please keep any males in her family away from me as well. The world has enough histrionic troublemakers as it is and they upset the orangutans. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577/140 "2015-09-04T04:57:09Z")
If think if an orangutan and a tour guide have a meaningful and committed relationship, there should be no law against them screaming at each other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-professors-instruct-students-in-what-opinions-to-hold/729577.md?page=8)