# Should Prostitution Be Legal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2012, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067 "2012-05-16T06:42:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/161 "2012-05-22T08:18:58Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Why is this different than an affair of the heart with a non-prostitute? That’s some Jack the Ripper shit right here. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/162 "2012-05-23T03:20:31Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > You made the claim first, psychological harm for rape. > **[Effects and aftermath of rape](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_and_aftermath_of_rape#Psychological_response_to_rape)** > > Rape is a traumatic experience that affects the victim (survivor) in a physical, psychological, and sociological way. Even though the effects and aftermath of rape differ among victims, individuals tend to suffer from similar issues found within these three categories. Long-term reactions may involve the development of coping mechanisms that will either benefit the victim, such as social support, or inhibit their recovery. Seeking support and professional resources may assist the victim in nu... Dead simple. Compare to non-rape assault, which demonstrates (so far as I can find) a lesser degree of pronounced or long-term psychological harm except in the case of persistent, long-running abuse in a majority of cases. Still looking for freely accessible cites on that one, though. > [@](#): > > Then I’ll see if I can find something similar for prostitution. Be sure your studies are discussing non-coerced prostitutes who made the decision freely to exchange sex for money. > [@](#): > > Of course, there will be a confounding variable: prostitutes are those for whom sex is already demystified, which may not be the case with rape victims. A society with no objections to prostitution is one where sex is demystified for the majority. The equivalent statement is that an MMA fighter is somehow less likely to be affected by being ambushed and beaten in an alley than a normal person, because an MMA fighter is one for whom violence is demystified. That’s utter bunk. The issue isn’t whether the act in question is demystified, the issue is whether being FORCED into the act is demystified. Two very, very different psychological scenarios. > [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s some Jack the Ripper shit right here. Either I’ve been whooshed, or you don’t know what “affair of the heart” means. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/163 "2012-05-23T03:27:51Z")
If you want less prostitution you aught to be fighting poverty, any other effort is just criminalizing the result of an irresponsible and selfish society, simply making it legal will help make the approach to it less hypocritical and help soften the damage of it but not by a whole lot, a society with such a large hole in the safety net and such fundamentalism about success is always going to result in ugly things existing and bad parts of town. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/164 "2012-05-23T06:55:03Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Be sure your studies are discussing non-coerced prostitutes who made the decision freely to exchange sex for money. … and that they actually measure the psychological effects of prostitution itself and not the contexts in which it occurs (in particular, the contexts of criminalisation and stigmatisation). > [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > If you want less prostitution you aught to be fighting poverty Yes. And also restrictions on migrant labour which limit employment alternatives. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/165 "2012-05-23T07:14:20Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > … and that they actually measure the psychological effects of prostitution itself and not the contexts in which it occurs (in particular, the contexts of criminalisation and stigmatisation). > Yes. And also restrictions on migrant labour which limit employment alternatives. The desire to have a world of extreme suffering, uncertainty and misdirection is so common. people actively want other people to die in a gutter for not working hard enough, not respecting local traditions or family enough, for not being clever or physically attractive enough, not being born into their group ect. I think most people know that the world wouldn’t fall apart if we took responsibility for everyone in our community who needed help, support, guidance, understanding and respect. they just don’t want those people to get that because theyre bad people to them, they deserve it. It proves by disparity that they deserve the life of plenty and family, opportunity and success that they have. A woman that’s given a chance to succeeded somewhere where she can hold her head high. And provide for her children will rarely choose prostitution. We make the choices that directly lead to the kidnapping of women the drug addiction of women the abuse of women. Maybe we can do no different, maybe humanity is deterministic, but if it is wee a all equally guilty and equally innocent. We should put the baggage behind us and be better than we are. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/166 "2012-05-23T08:52:00Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > … and that they actually measure the psychological effects of prostitution itself and not the contexts in which it occurs (in particular, the contexts of criminalisation and stigmatisation). I’m glad you said that, because it illustrates the point clearly. Sex is treated as inviolable in our society and rape victims have been historically denigrated (especially when rape occurred in marriage). Such a notion is difficult to divorce from the consequent psychological effects of the abuse. One route to doing so is the removal of rape legislation (or at least separately classifying the acts, such as detainment or knowingly infecting an individual with an STD). The information I found relating to [PTSD](http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/ProsViolPosttrauStress.html) and other [health effects](http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/mhvhealt.htm) did not control for rape or other forms of violence, but the cite given by Zeriel claims levels of violence also effect the incidence of rape trauma syndrome. Also found papers by Murphy (2010) and Cobbina (2011) to the same effect. Interestingly, I couldn’t find any corresponding information on pornography workers. Searches just yielded information about pornography consumers. It’d be interesting to do some interviews with pornography workers, actually. I can also think of [one study](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_4_41/ai_n9488757/) where childhood sexual activity was putatively regarded as positive. > [@Zeriel](#): > > That’s utter bunk. The physical consequences are the same, but is the emotional trauma? Your turn to cite! ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/167 "2012-05-23T15:28:08Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > The information I found relating to [PTSD](http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/ProsViolPosttrauStress.html) and other [health effects](http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/mhvhealt.htm) did not control for rape or other forms of violence, That’s one way of phrasing it. Another way of phrasing it is that your cites make it clear that it’s violence against prostitutes that is the problem, not necessarily prostitution itself. C’mon, man, that first cite has assault rates in the 80%+ range. That’s not going to happen in a society where prostitution is legal and prostitutes have the ability to call the cops. As [this article](http://myweb.dal.ca/mgoodyea/files/United%20States/Violence%20and%20legalized%20brothel%20prostitution%20in%20Nevada%20Brents%20J%20Interpers%20Viol%202005%2020(3)%20270-95.pdf) about legal brothel prostitution in Nevada (which is not even close to the ideal, mind you, of legalization) says in the abstract, “the legalization of prostitution brings a level of public scrutiny, official regulation, and bureaucratization to brothels that decreases the risk of … systematic violence.” ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/168 "2012-05-24T06:58:52Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > The information I found relating to [PTSD](http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/ProsViolPosttrauStress.html) and other [health effects](http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/mhvhealt.htm) did not control for rape or other forms of violence They don’t control for a lot of other things, either. The first study is exclusively of women in street prostitution, even though street prostitution accounts for only a small percentage of overall prostitution. There are significant demographic differences between women in street prostitution and women in indoor prostitution which make it impossible to generalise from the first category. Also, that study was carried out by Melissa Farley, who I’d strongly recommend not citing before you read [this](http://cybersolidaires.typepad.com/files/complaint-to-apa-against-mfarley.pdf). I can’t find the actual study which your second link cites, but the fact that it’s titled “Health Experiences of Twin Cities Women _Used in Prostitution_” (my emphasis) is rather suggestive of either the bias of the author or the category of women in prostitution studied, or both. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2012, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/169 "2012-05-24T07:52:02Z")
The majority of articles cited by the rape trauma syndrome wiki were about male victims or rape, which form a small proportion of the overall victims of (reported) rape too. The [one cite](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14696711) I found which addressed “coercion” rather than violent rape discovered anxiety and distress as the relevant psychological effects, which forms a rather small subset of the purported “outward adjustment stage”. It’s similar to how there are some symptoms of PTSD in victims of [muggings](https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=48894). Also, there are two different ways in which our hypothetical battery/prostitution/promiscuity society would be different. The first is that since rape may be [variable in the population](http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/everyday_economics/2006/10/how_the_web_prevents_rape.html), a more promiscuous society would have more avenues for a potential rapist to achieve satiety. The other is that the associated stigma for being raped would be absent. I also referenced two other studies, perhaps you’d care to review them? Btw, I forgot to address your comment about “duress” in the other thread. It’s essentially an appeal to consequences of a belief. If we hold that people are under duress, thieves would have an excuse. Doesn’t matter if they are under duress… ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/170 "2012-05-26T11:32:47Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > The majority of articles cited by the rape trauma syndrome wiki were about male victims or rape, which form a small proportion of the overall victims of (reported) rape too. If you’re replying to me (it would help to specify, since there are a number of people involved in this conversation), I haven’t said anything about rape trauma syndrome. I would agree that studies of male rape victims should not be generalised to women but that doesn’t make your cites on prostitution (the point I was addressing) any more reliable. > [@](#): > > I also referenced two other studies, perhaps you’d care to review them? If they’re about prostitution, sure, but please provide links or at least titles. I’m not Googling “Murphy 2010”. > [@](#): > > Btw, I forgot to address your comment about “duress” in the other thread. It’s essentially an appeal to consequences of a belief. If we hold that people are under duress, thieves would have an excuse. Doesn’t matter if they are under duress… Sorry but I have no idea what point you’re making here. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/171 "2012-05-26T13:00:49Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > I would agree that studies of male rape victims should not be generalised to women but that doesn’t make your cites on prostitution (the point I was addressing) any more reliable. Let’s back this up a bit: > [@Zeriel](#): > > Show me the research that demonstrates psychological harm for consensual prostitution, then. > [@ruadh](#): > > and that they actually measure the psychological effects of prostitution itself and not the contexts in which it occurs (in particular, the contexts of criminalisation and stigmatisation). The qualifier you were expounding for my prostitution cites was not met in the case of rape. My point was that rape should not be held as distinct from other battery if the consequences of rape are dependant on the trauma incurred as with other types of battery. So far, no context free psychological consequences for rape have been expounded, just as with prostitution. Here’s the Cobbina [article](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1475-682X.2011.00375.x/abstract). The Murphy one is titled " Understanding the social and economic contexts surrounding women engaged in street-level prostitution." > [@ruadh](#): > > Sorry but I have no idea what point you’re making here. > [@ruadh](#): > > [The need for subsistence cannot be considered violence in itself, otherwise a person who engages in theft or drug dealing to fulfil that need could use a duress defence and society certainly wouldn’t stand for that.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15031381&postcount=168) You were essentially substituting the conclusion with an argumentum ad populum. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/172 "2012-05-27T08:09:59Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > My point was that rape should not be held as distinct from other battery if the consequences of rape are dependant on the trauma incurred as with other types of battery. So far, no context free psychological consequences for rape have been expounded, just as with prostitution. Oh, OK. You were mixing up my line of argument and somebody else’s (Zeriel’s, I assume). It’s for him/her to address the problems with the rape studies. > [@](#): > > Here’s the Cobbina [article](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1475-682X.2011.00375.x/abstract). The Murphy one is titled " Understanding the social and economic contexts surrounding women engaged in street-level prostitution." Well there you go. Both of those studies are limited to street prostitution, so they both have exactly the same problem as the Farley one. > [@](#): > > You were essentially substituting the conclusion with an argumentum ad populum. No, I was pointing out what the law is in relation to the “economic duress” defence to criminality: that the need for subsistence does not negative one’s ability to give consent to acts done in fulfillment of that need (at best, it may be a mitigating factor in sentencing). To take the approach that you were taking, that survival sex workers aren’t really doing it voluntarily, would undermine that well-established principle. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/173 "2012-05-27T14:26:33Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > To take the approach that you were taking, that survival sex workers aren’t really doing it voluntarily, would undermine that well-established principle. The principle is entrenched, but I wouldn’t describe it as well-established. My fundamental premise for all occupations are that they should be voluntary and I think rent and property diminish the capacity for voluntary employment (I tend to argue the standard in regards to pornography and prostitution due to the special plea society employs for sex). The truth of that premise is independent of whether the courts consider it a valid legal defence in cases of theft, just as the premise that prostitution should be regulated and safe does not impact their persecution of individuals violating laws against prostitution. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/174 "2012-05-27T16:22:25Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > My fundamental premise for all occupations are that they should be voluntary and I think rent and property diminish the capacity for voluntary employment And this is exactly why I’m not bothering to respond to you, for the record–you are only using this issue as a jumping-off point to address your greater issues with capitalism, so there’s no real point in engaging you. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/175 "2012-05-27T17:15:12Z")
Yeah, that’s the problem I pointed out a while ago, there’s no common language if the discussion is, essentially, in terms of wage ‘slavery’. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Sheikh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Sheikh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Sheikh)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/176 "2012-05-27T21:45:41Z")
I don’t think logic is the only instrument people use to judge things. To make sure of that, I would like to ask FinnAgain: should slaughtering and eating dogs be made legal? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/177 "2012-05-27T22:07:50Z")
What is the optimal ratio of home cooked meals to fast food in today’s busy world? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Sheikh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Sheikh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Sheikh)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/178 "2012-05-27T22:37:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > What is the optimal ratio of home cooked meals to fast food in today’s busy world? Is this an appeal to ridicule which you and other debaters were talking about. Forgive the way my question may have sounded, but I like the way you logically analyze issues and find what you say common sense but contradicts the way I feel. So, enlighten me. Where exactly do you draw the limits of freedom? why can i not kill myself if I want to and were mentally ok? How about son to mother marriages? and so on. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/179 "2012-05-27T23:51:52Z")
> [@The\_Sheikh](#): > > Is this an appeal to ridicule which you and other debaters were talking about. No, it’s pointing out that our question was a total non sequitor, as are the others you’ve added in this post and, at best, they’d require an entirely new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067/180 "2012-05-28T00:10:09Z")
> [@The\_Sheikh](#): > > I don’t think logic is the only instrument people use to judge things. To make sure of that, I would like to ask FinnAgain: should slaughtering and eating dogs be made legal? Why not? If not done with excessive cruelty, it’s not particularly different than pigs (which are also excellent, friendly, and intelligent pets). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-prostitution-be-legal/622067.md?page=10)