# Should public schools be managed and taught by the military? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2019, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552 "2019-05-26T14:12:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/81 "2019-05-29T11:59:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Ima stop you right there. No I haven’t, and no you haven’t. If you think you have, then all I can guarantee is that your students have been in a classroom with an unfit teacher. No, their were plenty of good teachers. However the school was a total zoo. For example, [look at this video of how even an award winning teacher at a school in Green Bay resigned out of protest.](https://fox11online.com/news/local/green-bay/long-time-washington-middle-teacher-resigns-raises-concerns-of-safety-at-the-school) It was the only way the disitrct would deal with the problems. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > They aren’t bad kids. Well, yes. They are some bad kids. And there are also good kids. Thing is the bad ones are allowed to roam the halls and cause too many problems. Also the kids in between see the bad kids as leaders and follow them > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Look, we’re talking about people too young to make decisions well. We don’t allow them to vote, or to join the military, or to sign contracts, or to drink, because we recognize that they’re not fully responsible for their behavior. It’s incumbent on the adults around them to provide them a context in which they learn how to make good decisions. They are old enough to know they are supposed to go to school to LEARN and not just cause trouble, roam the halls, fight teachers, start fires, destroy property, open supposedly secured doors and allow others inside the building, and cause general mayhem. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > AND BEATING THEM WITH STICKS IS NOT THAT GD CONTEXT. I agree, that was too far but that was the 3rd world. Glad to see order was restored. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yes, we need to do something radical. Fortunately, we know some things we can do: > > 1. Make it practically harder for them to access guns, through appropriate firearms legislation. > 2. Address the kinds of structural inequalities that incentivize violent crime. > 3. Address ACES, specifically the trauma that comes from living in a high-violence context. Those are issues for society in general. I have seen perfectly fine schools even in the worse neighborhoods. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This last one is going to involve school measures (adequately staffing social workers, counselors, and psychologists) and community measures (similar to step 2). I agree we do not put enough resources into fixing the worse schools. IMO we should pay the teachers extra, pay for more of them so smaller classroom sizes, hire more security, have strict discipline policies in place including kicking out the worse ones, and working with groups in the community to reach out to address social needs. [HERE is an article about changes made to the middle school mentioned above.](https://www.wearegreenbay.com/news/local-news/5-investigates-changes-at-washington-middle-school/955393466) Thing is it shouldnt take a dramatic seen of an award winning teacher resigning in such a public way to force a school district to make changes and improve a school. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It might not satisfy vengeance fantasies of angry ex-teachers in the way that imagining beating children with sticks would, but it’d got a damn sight further in actually fixing the very real problem. I think most teachers are good people and would be satisfied if just the above measures were taken. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/82 "2019-05-29T12:40:40Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > I agree with other posts that the general idea of the military being given totally non-military tasks, presumably because it’s generally rated the most highly respected US institution, seldom if ever makes any sense taken literally. That’s even before examining why and by whom the military is so highly respected as institution. Ie, not by everybody, and moreover partly just in comparison to distressingly low confidence by Americans in most other public institutions. Right. Not only can the military be as bureaucratic and red-tapey as any civilian entity when it comes to the administrative side, but the part at which they excel and for which they are so respected _is a function of their mission focus_. The military’s function and skillset is and has to remain being an effective fighting and deterrent force. Turning it into a generic Department of Making People Follow Orders to get any public function done by command when it fails to get done through normal channels (and you KNOW people would not stop at schools) would badly degrade its core mission. > [@](#): > > Federalizing primary/secondary education would be a poster child for that IMO even under the unlikely assumption it could gain approval in Congress during some short swing of the political pendulum to an extreme of federalized solutions. Yeah, that’s the other part – think what woudl be the general reaction if instead of the military the proposal were the US Department of Education taking over all the schools. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/83 "2019-05-29T12:45:41Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Nigeria’s capitol has been Abuja since 1991. > > [Abuja - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuja) > > Let’s return to our regularly scheduled programming. And as long as we’re nitpicking, Abuja is the capital of Nigeria, not the “capitol.” Gaudere’s Law strikes again. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/84 "2019-05-29T13:03:33Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I agree, that was too far but that was the 3rd world. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/85 "2019-05-29T14:41:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Why he’d want[these kids](https://itpulse.com.ng/2019/01/23/nigerian-unity-schools-shine-at-robotics-competition/) beaten is beyond me… Those are the good ones. URN, these kids don’t need more discipline. They need adequate food, a safe living environment, a sense of security about their future, a standard of living that includes some luxuries, protection from adult predators, a default attitude of respect from authorities. acknowledgement that they have been through real traumas that need to be addressed, teachers who believe they are perfectly capable and can learn, a clean and comfortable learning environment and real reason to believe that their actions will make a meaningful difference in the future. I am an award winning teacher, too. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/86 "2019-05-29T14:43:35Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > You think 20% of Americans are fundamentally unsuited to life in society? 1 in 5? “Unsuited” is a subjective term open to interpretation. I am saying that they are basically uneducated, without specialized skills of any kind, and often very undisciplined in terms of being team players and working towards specific goals. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/87 "2019-05-29T15:24:46Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > “Unsuited” is a subjective term open to interpretation. I am saying that they are basically uneducated, without specialized skills of any kind, and often very undisciplined in terms of being team players and working towards specific goals. To the point that they would not be much different had they been unschooled? Because there may be 20% of the population that aren’t rocket scientists, but I think they are a lot more capable and socialized because they had some schooling. I think society would be really different if 20% of our population were literally unschooled. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/88 "2019-05-29T15:50:22Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Just in some cases. Kids who need more discipline than the usual population. You know, the Nigerians. > > And when 20$ of the population is illierate, unsocialized, unsuited to even menial employment, what do we do then? > > 9/10, the highly disruptive kid is a perfectly normal kid put in an environment beyond his ability to handle. He’s being abused. He’s hungry. He doesn’t think he’s going to live to be 18. He believes he is so worthless, all this is worthless, that there’s no point. He’s been through some terrifying shit and all-over anger has destroyed his ability to be rational and he’s lashing out. > > But it’s easier to blame him for the problems the other kids are having than to recognize that, 9/10, he’s the worst victim of the problems of society, not the cause. > > And I say this as a nearly 20 year veteran of one of the largest, poorest school districts in the country. Aren’t we pretty much there now? ---
**Author:** ![EarlGrayHot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e480ec/32.png) [@EarlGrayHot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EarlGrayHot)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/89 "2019-05-29T16:12:21Z")
Nope. I recall teachers who were in the military and no, we did not prefer them. A school is not the military and should not be taught as if it is. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/90 "2019-05-29T16:44:18Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Not to be nit-picky, but this has been driving me nuts. The capital of Nigeria is L_a_gos, not Legos. I thought the word was Logos. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/91 "2019-05-29T16:47:20Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Aren’t we pretty much there now? Right now the US has an 86% literacy rate. If we denied “bad” children the right to go to school, that would drop even lower. I feel like the claim that 20% of kids are currently learning nothing in school is extraordinary and needs to be supported by those who are making it. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/92 "2019-05-29T17:56:09Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Right now the US has an 86% literacy rate. If we denied “bad” children the right to go to school, that would drop even lower. > > I feel like the claim that 20% of kids are currently learning nothing in school is extraordinary and needs to be supported by those who are making it. Ok, so uh 14% isn’t all that far from 20%. Right? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/93 "2019-05-29T18:15:26Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Ok, so uh 14% isn’t all that far from 20%. Right? Why do you think that the 20% of kids that would be kicked out would be the 14% that are illiterate now? Seriously. Do you think 20% of the population learned nothing in school? 1 in 5? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/94 "2019-05-29T18:16:17Z")
The 14% called “illiterate” includes people for whom English is not a first language and who might not even have gone to school in the United States. It is also a standard that usually sets the bar at around eighth grade reading levels, not total illiteracy. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/95 "2019-05-29T18:22:57Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Those are the good ones. > > URN, these kids don’t need more discipline. They need adequate food, a safe living environment, a sense of security about their future, a standard of living that includes some luxuries, protection from adult predators, a default attitude of respect from authorities. acknowledgement that they have been through real traumas that need to be addressed, teachers who believe they are perfectly capable and can learn, a clean and comfortable learning environment and real reason to believe that their actions will make a meaningful difference in the future. > > I am an award winning teacher, too. But, but, I like hittin 'em. That’s what they “deserve”, right, because they are not good students. It’s not really about helping them, it’s about shutting them up, out of sight out of mind. These 20% are not the ones that need our contempt and the back of our hand, these 20% are the ones that need compassion and a hand up. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/96 "2019-05-29T19:04:06Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Why do you think that the 20% of kids that would be kicked out would be the 14% that are illiterate now? > > Seriously. Do you think 20% of the population learned nothing in school? 1 in 5? No, I think that of the 14% illiterate are part and parcel of those already not graduating high school. Now, if we allow the others to ‘not go’ or kick them out because they don’t want to be there, we garner another 6% ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/97 "2019-05-29T19:05:33Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > But, but, I like hittin 'em. > > That’s what they “deserve”, right, because they are not good students. It’s not really about helping them, it’s about shutting them up, out of sight out of mind. > > These 20% are not the ones that need our contempt and the back of our hand, these 20% are the ones that need compassion and a hand up. The 20% is actually far more likelier to need a home presence. Parents whom care. Monetary considerations not aside, some parents whom may care don’t have the time to care. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/98 "2019-05-29T20:10:43Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > The 20% is actually far more likelier to need a home presence. Parents whom care. Monetary considerations not aside, some parents whom may care don’t have the time to care. Right, and that goes far beyond what can be considered to be school related policies. But, as a I said, they need compassion and care. I have some ideas on how to try to reach out to them and assist them to be integrated members of society, but most of them would require resources and community involvement, so they are pretty much non-starters. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/99 "2019-05-29T20:47:24Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > No, their were plenty of good teachers. Nobody who believes their students are bad kids belongs in a classroom. Full stop. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/100 "2019-05-29T22:17:23Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Ok, so uh 14% isn’t all that far from 20%. Right? I dunno, I failed math. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552.md?page=6)