# Should public schools be managed and taught by the military? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2019, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552 "2019-05-26T14:12:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/101 "2019-05-30T02:36:38Z")
[Cleveland Jr. Naval Academy High School](https://www.slps.org/Domain/2131) in St. Louis is a public magnet school, with a [suitably military code of honor.](https://www.slps.org/Page/32739) From what I can tell, its academic record is [unremarkable,](https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/missouri/districts/st-louis-public-schools/cleveland-njrotc-academy-11946) even among the other schools operated by the [St. Louis City School District.](https://graphics.stltoday.com/apps/education/schools/school-map-scores/?district=st-louis-city-school-district) ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/102 "2019-05-30T05:01:31Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > No, I think that of the 14% illiterate are part and parcel of those already not graduating high school. Now, if we allow the others to ‘not go’ or kick them out because they don’t want to be there, we garner another 6% Not a small number of that 14% would also just plain old not have the intellect to read at an 8th grade level, no matter what school they attended. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/103 "2019-05-30T15:42:16Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Not a small number of that 14% would also just plain old not have the intellect to read at an 8th grade level, no matter what school they attended. So you’re saying that something like 10% will never read at an 8th grade level no matter what? That seems pretty pessimistic. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/104 "2019-05-30T16:37:34Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > So you’re saying that something like 10% will never read at an 8th grade level no matter what? That seems pretty pessimistic. [I see stats I see are closer to 1-3% of people have mental disabilities.](https://www.specialolympics.org/about/intellectual-disabilities/what-is-intellectual-disability) Or [7% is the total mental disability.](https://www.disabilityscoop.com/2017/11/29/cdc-disabilities-rise/24468/) Hard to find a good cite. But not all of those with these mental disabilities are also illiterate. At a ballpark guess based on this light research, probably somewhere between 3-5% will never be able to read at an 8th grade level. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/105 "2019-05-30T17:01:27Z")
[Well, approximately 16% of the population do have IQs below 85.](https://www.highiqpro.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/bell-curve.png) ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/106 "2019-05-30T17:46:29Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I know who you are talking about! He came to Dallas next. Was a disaster. > > Also, honestly, not at all like the real military. Actual military people don’t cultivate a culture of fear. Yes. One of the best teachers in my high school was a retired Marine drill instructor who taught civics and current events. He was tough enough to maintain order in his classroom, and he took no crap; but he was also able to engage with us, and get us fired up about what he was teaching us. He was a conservative Republican, usually teaching a bunch of liberal teenagers; his current events classes were often debates about social issues, during which he was sneakily teaching us about logical thinking, citing sources, and molding our opinions to the facts. Great teacher and a good man. But the fact that _this_ Marine DI was a great teacher does not prove that _all_ Marine DIs would be great teachers. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/107 "2019-05-30T19:29:35Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Yes. One of the best teachers in my high school was a retired Marine drill instructor who taught civics and current events. He was tough enough to maintain order in his classroom, and he took no crap; but he was also able to engage with us, and get us fired up about what he was teaching us. He was a conservative Republican, usually teaching a bunch of liberal teenagers; his current events classes were often debates about social issues, during which he was sneakily teaching us about logical thinking, citing sources, and molding our opinions to the facts. Great teacher and a good man. > > But the fact that _this_ Marine DI was a great teacher does not prove that _all_ Marine DIs would be great teachers. Odd, we had the opposite for our history/civics teacher. He was a far left liberal vietnam vet teaching a bunch of conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/108 "2019-05-30T20:43:27Z")
There’s an enormous difference between these two proposals: 1. Vets who complete a teaching certification program should be able to become teachers; and 2. Our schools should be managed and taught by the military. It’s so different that I think anecdotes about individual vets who became teachers are a little off-course. On the other hand, the OP is so clearly a ridiculous nonstarter of an idea that maybe hijacking the thread into IMHO “tell us about your great military veteran teachers” is a fine new direction for the thread :). ---
**Author:** ![TimfromNapa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@TimfromNapa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimfromNapa)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/109 "2019-05-30T20:56:02Z")
Boy, the idea of the military taking over our schools makes me think of Tom Paxton’s song (popularized by Pete Seeger),“What did you learn in school today?”. It is well worth checking out the lyrics. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/110 "2019-05-30T21:50:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There’s an enormous difference between these two proposals: > > 1. Vets who complete a teaching certification program should be able to become teachers; and Which I think most of us would agree. > [@](#): > > 1. Our schools should be managed and taught by the military. Which I hope most of us feel is not a good idea. > [@](#): > > It’s so different that I think anecdotes about individual vets who became teachers are a little off-course. On the other hand, the OP is so clearly a ridiculous nonstarter of an idea that maybe hijacking the thread into IMHO “tell us about your great military veteran teachers” is a fine new direction for the thread :). Okay. Some days, my history/civics teacher (it was a big school, but I had him for two different classes over 2 years) would just turn off the lights light some candles, and put on a Doors album. The rumor was that he was spotted smoking weed at some parties, but I never got invited to those sorts of parties, so cannot confirm. He was actually a great teacher, even if most of the conservative students really hated him. I was never comfortable with the conservative ideology I grew up with, and he was probably the first figure in authority that challenged those notions. He never talked about his time in the service, no idea whether he was ever even out of the country for it, but he did talk around it enough to get the impression that he really didn’t like what happened in that war he was drafted into. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/111 "2019-05-30T21:51:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > [Well, approximately 16% of the population do have IQs below 85.](https://www.highiqpro.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/bell-curve.png) There are also people with undiagnosed ADHD and/or dyslexia who would count in that 14%. ---
**Author:** ![richw211](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@richw211](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/richw211)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/112 "2019-06-04T19:55:41Z")
(Please forgive me if someone else has raised these questions.) I agree that schools need reform, but the military solution is ridiculous. After reading chaidragonfire’s opening post, I’d be very curious to know what his actual experience is, if any, with military schools/training programs. I have been through lengthy military technical training and the following items in the post seem particularly silly to me: - “Teachers would be thoroughly vetted…” Let’s hope so. I ran into so many seriously sick S.O.B.s in the military (pedophiles, porn fanatics, etc.). - “School administrators and principles would have the means and training to properly administer discipline, which wouldn’t be a much of a problem with MILITARY GRADE trained teachers in charge.” Isn’t military grade often used to mean ludicrously expensive for its worth? - “All kids would get decent food…” Training commands had THE worst food. - “Kids will be taught… …manners, etiquette…” They may be taught, but will they perform when outside of school? - “NO bullies.” Wow, I don’t know where to start with this one. - “All kids get treated equally, no special treatment.” Sooooo much brown nosing. - “Knowledge comes first, before anything, especially sports.” Huh? Please note that the comments above are intended to apply only to a small portion of the folks I interacted with in the military. I guess the parting point is that the military includes a wide cross-section of society and I would expect a military school to be same. ---
**Author:** ![paulmarkj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@paulmarkj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulmarkj)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/113 "2019-06-14T18:22:16Z")
“Schools stripped of their power to manage and discipline their own schools.” Untrue. Behaviour is managed through strategies that teacher are trained in. These strategies work. The military would not understand how to properly and fruitfully manage behaviour. In my experience, ex-military THINK they can teach because all it requires is their ‘discipline’ through strength. They soon realise that to engage and for pupils to learn, force is not the answer. “Kids will be taught discipline, self-control, manners, etiquette, and taught about actual real life” if you think those can be in any way forced into children by use of force and/or fear, you are badly mistaken. “I’ve had ex-military teachers when I was in high school, and believe it or not all the kids preferred these teachers to all the others” I have known ex-military in schools and they usually fail. “Without control and discipline, you have anarchy and destruction. Which is what this country has today.” Wrong. it is perfectly possible for pupils to learn self control and behaviour in other caring ways. How do I know? 20 years experience working as a teacher with children with severe behaviour problems. When all the schools can no longer cope, they come to us. Most pupils turn their behaviour around in a few weeks. Boundaries. Respect. Engagement. Rewards. These basics almost always work and when they don’t it is because of deep seated emotional problems. I could give you case study after case study, video after video of the change in pupils in just a few weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/114 "2019-06-14T18:50:45Z")
The rhetoric put forth by the OP sounds like someone who has never set step in a public school nor ever been around the military. Everything is stereotypical nonsense at both extremes pulled from a Yahoo article comments section. The public school system is not in shambles and the military is from being some kind of well oiled machine. Both have their successes and their shortcomings and I’d recon both probably run at the same efficiency. Get a grip on reality before putting out some knee-jerk solution based on extreme anecdotes. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/115 "2019-06-14T19:40:36Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > The public school system is not in shambles and the military is [far] from being some kind of well oiled machine. OTOH, put Marines in charge of preschools and kindergartens and they’ll never run out of crayons to eat. It’s win-win ! ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552/116 "2019-06-14T21:44:20Z")
> [@paulmarkj](#): > > “Schools stripped of their power to manage and discipline their own schools.” > > Untrue. Behaviour is managed through strategies that teacher are trained in. These strategies work. The military would not understand how to properly and fruitfully manage behaviour. > > In my experience, ex-military THINK they can teach because all it requires is their ‘discipline’ through strength. They soon realise that to engage and for pupils to learn, force is not the answer. > > “Kids will be taught discipline, self-control, manners, etiquette, and taught about actual real life” > > if you think those can be in any way forced into children by use of force and/or fear, you are badly mistaken. > > “I’ve had ex-military teachers when I was in high school, and believe it or not all the kids preferred these teachers to all the others” > > I have known ex-military in schools and they usually fail. > > “Without control and discipline, you have anarchy and destruction. Which is what this country has today.” > > Wrong. it is perfectly possible for pupils to learn self control and behaviour in other caring ways. > > How do I know? 20 years experience working as a teacher with children with severe behaviour problems. When all the schools can no longer cope, they come to us. Most pupils turn their behaviour around in a few weeks. > > Boundaries. > Respect. > Engagement. > Rewards. > > These basics almost always work and when they don’t it is because of deep seated emotional problems. > > I could give you case study after case study, video after video of the change in pupils in just a few weeks. Every time a news story shows up on social media about discipline problems in schools, local or otherwise, the “it’s because we can’t discipline our kids” people come out of the woodwork. The people who are afraid to set limits on their kids because they say they fear CPS usually have other reasons to legitimately fear CPS. Just a few days ago, a poster said she was at the grocery store, and a toddler sat down in the parking lot. A man that she assumed was the child’s father picked him up and guided him to the car. She said, “I would have given that kid a good spanking!” and I replied, “Then why didn’t you? Used to be, it was acceptable to do that in some places.” Yes, really. Strangers hitting your kid - NIIIIICE. Yes, you can discipline your kids. You just can’t abuse or torture them in its name, and there’s no one-size-fits-all when in comes to discipline - or education, for that matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-public-schools-be-managed-and-taught-by-the-military/834552.md?page=5)