Should rational adults be allowed to commit suicide with the help of society?

Great Debates
21

People should get to make their own choice about their life and death.

I very much love someone with untreatable severe depression (and I have known and cared about someone else in that situation). This situation has not changed despite every possible treatment over the past 40 years. There is no joy in that life and each day is a struggle. I would not blame them if they chose to opt out of more suffering, although it would cause me tremendous personal pain. In fact, I think it would be downright selfish and cruel of me to oppose them if they chose that path.

22

Your rationale against it seems entirely put in terms of how it affects others people (perhaps this is just one argument out of many you have, though). Could I ask; let’s say our prospective suicidal person has no such friends and family. Would you accept their petition to die?

What if the suicidal person in question is widely disliked? Or disliked by more people than liked? If I am suicidal, and I have a partner who deeply loves me and will miss me terribly, but ten vicious enemies who will celebrate my death uproariously, does the depth of glee make my hypothetical suicide acceptable?

And while we’re on the point… if we have an obligation to not kill ourselves if that will cause distress to others, does that mean that we have an obligation to kill ourselves if that will cause glee to others? If not, and it’s purely something where distress matters, not the other side of the emotional spectrum, are people obligated to kill themselves if by their death they would cause less distress in the world?

23

After having this discussion with all kinds of people in all kinds of places in the US over the last 40 years:

The culture of the US is at least 2 generations away from al but a tiny few to even be able to discuss “Rational Suicide”.
I was held for 3 days because a Nurse heard me mention “suicide” as the ultimate escape mechanism.
No matter how irrational your opposition to suicide is, you have to admit it IS the ultimate escape.

These laws carving out tiny, little islands wherein suicide is allowed:
Must be terminally ill
Must have less than 6 mos to live
(extra points for uncontrollable pain)

are the beginning of a culture in which a child can be raised without the knee-jerk “IT IS BAD! NEVER PERMISSIBLE!” still found throughout the US.*

If you want a case study: “Dan White” + “san francisco”.
Typical comment: He finally killed somebody who needed killing.

Come back in 60 years: this discussion can then be breached without 1000 years of “Sin” and “Crime”.

But yes: it is completely credible that a sane, intelligent adult could decide, quite rationally, to end their life early.

I have no insight to Robin Williams thoughts, but: If my mind and its cleverness DEFINED me, and I was told my mind would not only cease to be clever, but would cease to be even sufficient to function, I suspect I’d be looking for the “Exit” sign.

Are the people who hear and understand the words “You are developing Alzheimer’s. In 3 years, you will have no memories and be unable to feed and clothe yourself”:
a. brave for sticking around for that ride?
b. too afraid/culturally proscribed to exit?
c. silently screaming “get it over with!” and hoping it stops somehow?
?

    • I have, for the last 50 years, suspected that I will be a suicide. This is a special topic for me.
24

I think there is something manipulative about saying that someone who wants to end their life is selfish because it causes pain to their family and friends. Sure, but what about the suicidal person’s pain in life? It is saying, “You should stay alive in your suffering in order to spare others pain caused by your death.”

25

Your rights end where someone else’s begins. You don’t, in general, have any sort of “right” to hurt other people. I did mention there are exceptions, I happen to feel they are few and far between.

I think we should concentrate more on alleviating suffering by helping people to live rather than helping them to die. As a general rule.

Not immediately, no.

As I mentioned, for someone terminally ill that might be acceptable. For someone who really has been suffering severe, unrelenting depression for “40 years” and really has tried multiple therapy modalities, preferable all of them with a chance of helping them, that might be OK.

This is like asking if I think a heart transplant is a good idea - holy crap, maybe we should try everything else in the toolkit first to solve the problem before going to that extreme.

Being unlikeable should not be a death sentence.

Being unlikeable should not be a death sentence.

Being unlikable should not be a death sentence.

Being unlikable should not be a death sentence.

No, other people have ZERO right to push to suicide, or try to talk you into it.

26

Maybe you should.

We don’t have any way to objectively measure anyone’s pain.

There are two camps here: one values the suffering of the suicide over everyone else’s, and the other values the suffering of everyone else over the suicide’s pain.

It’s pretty obvious in any discussion which side a person falls on.

From my viewpoint, it’s a might high bar you have to clear to justify causing life-long pain to other people.

27

When I was suicidal, it would seriously piss me off when I’d hear about people talking about the pain of friends and family. Because I was in excruciating pain at times, and yet my friends and family weren’t lining up to take on any of that. They knew I was miserable, but this knowledge wasn’t enough for them to stop enjoying their lives. They would call me or email me to make sure I was okay. But did anyone drop what they were doing to rescue me? No. And I didn’t expect them to or want them to.

It seems to me that if a person is obligated to live for their friends and family, then it becomes their friends and family’s responsibility to make that person’s life worth living. If I’m suffering from the worst pain imaginable, then everyone who begs for me to “be strong” should do whatever they possibly can to lighten that pain. But that’s not how it usually works. Friends and family will pray for a loved one. They may visit them and provide some degree of fleeting comfort. But typically that person is still going to continue to suffer while friends and family continue to live their lives. It would be selfish for the person to demand more from their family than they are willing to give. And yet it is also selfish for them not to want to make any demands. How unfair.

I’m imagining myself stuck in bed in hellish agony while friends and family beg me to not be selfish by pulling the plug, right before they jet off on vacation without me. I wouldn’t begrudge them their vacation, but it would still make me wonder how meaningful the word “selfish” is in this context.

28

So we are doing this again? :sigh:

Yes, with safeguards. Society should proved a safe option only, the choice belongs to the person.

Raises hand.

Do I know you?

I want an end to the pain, to end this existence. It’s why I tried to jump off that damn bridge last year. I was hospitalize for 5 days (psych ward), it wasn’t fun and has been the main reason I’m still here.

I wish I could get a prescription for life ending drugs and a nice place to take them* to keep things as simple & neat as possible.

Please read: http://www.depressioncomix.com/
It will give you some idea of what many people with mental illness go thru.

Just Because:
[ul]
[li]I have no SO.[/li][li]I have no children.[/li][li]Not even a damn cat.[/li][li]Mother is dead.[/li][li]Father is probably dead.[/li][li]Brother & I don’t talk.[/li][/ul]

“Death, I welcome your cold embrace, release from this fever called life.”
(A phrase I came up with in 1996, on the old AOL broads. I’m rather proud of it.)
*also some egg nog & an a cheesecake, would be nice.
I’m going to regret this.

29

This comes off as snarky, and that’s not what I was going for.
I’m sorry about that and also what you have been through.
Take Care of yourself.

30

It takes an incredible amount of hubris to say “I have the right to tell you how you must live”.

A stranger on a message board does NOT have the right to tell me “You can’t do that”.
What I do or do not do is none of your damned business.

This is the abortion discussion, the gay marriage discussion, the civil rights discussion and a few thousand other discussions:
YOU do NOT have the right to tell ME what I can and cannot do. I do NOT need your “permission” to live and die on my terms.

Do I even need to point out the “You can’t do that because others will be inconvenienced” is crap?
I am going to die. You are going to die.

We are discussing timing, not eventuality.

“You must suffer because I would be saddened by your death” is the ultimate self-centered declaration.
I do NOT live or die for your pleasure.

31

Agreement. Suicide can be rational, when the quality of life is very severely degraded. Someone who is in great pain, with no hope of improvement, is not irrational for taking a step to end that pain.

But, yes, safeguards are very necessary. We don’t want the elderly persuaded to end their lives by greedy heirs, and we’d prefer that there be no strong racial, ethnic, or social class differences observed. No one should commit suicide because of economic poverty, unemployment, homelessness, debts, etc. We need social safety nets to protect such persons.

32

I don’t think assisted suicide should be legal, and I think society should do its best to try and reduce the suicide rate, but with due respect, this is a terrible argument. There are lots of things (adultery, for example, or difficult breakups) that cause lots of emotional pain to third parties, but that we shouldn’t be in the business of trying to outlaw.

If society has an interest in reducing the suicide rate, and I certainly believe that (except for rare circumstances) we do, that’s because suicide causes harm to the person committing suicide, not because of the emotional harm to their friends or relatives.

33

I was arguing in response to the OP, specially his assertion about “distress” to others.

Look, I agree that there are some circumstances where suicide might be tolerable, but they aren’t common. I don’t want to condone some teenager having temporary angst killing him or herself. We should try to help someone with an illness, not give up on them until there really are no alternatives left.

On top of that - no, people shouldn’t commit adultery, bully someone else, and so forth either. I wasn’t discussing whether or not something is legal so much as ethical. While there is considerable overlap they are not the same things.

34

No one should have to stay alive for anyone else’s benefit. Period. I think what survivors of suicide go through is absolutely horrific, however, we all have agency over ourselves and they, as best they can, deal with the fallout. Much like the suicidal person had to deal with their hellish existence. It’s on us all to take care of our own issues, whatever they may be.

And yes, society should help those who say they’ve had enough and can’t cope any longer. There could potentially be more than just one group of people affected by inaction… I.E.: say, any of the people that make the news by going on a killing spree who have been diagnosed with severe, clinical depression or suicidal ideation.

35

Remember that “idiot criminal” who walked past a marked cop car and into a Gun Shop where the cop was chatting with the owner? He then shoots a couple of wild shots and is promptly gunned down by the cop and the owner.

If you think that was a botched robbery, your antenna needs calibration.

I can think of half a dozen ways to die without leaving home.
Firing a gun wildly in the presence of a cop is not needed, but a useful plot for those with hand guns. Or replicas of hand guns.

36

Ok, so there’s more rationale there.

Then why should being likeable be a life sentence? If you’re saying that other people’s distress is good reason to prevent suicide, then why is other people’s distress if you don’t kill yourself not good reason to allow suicide? I can understand if you have some other rationale that comes in at that point, but if we’re saying the distress of others should be taken into account in these decisions it seems like they should work either way. If being loved and adored is reason to prevent someone taking their life, then surely being hated and despised is reason to allow it? If their continued existence will mean, as you’ve put it elsewhere in this thread, “causing life-long pain to other people”, isn’t that as much justification for suicide as it would be against it on the other side?

I do agree that being unlikeable shouldn’t be a death sentence. But if we take the views of others into account it seems like that’s an equal conclusion to your argument.

37

I agree with that sentiment if the illness is something like cancer.

But what if the illness is depression? That’s a bit of a grey area.

38

True, sorry, I should have specified that in modern US culture you’re never going to make suicide socially acceptable.

39

It’s not the “being loved and adored” that’s the problem here, it’s hurting others.

If someone is completely despicable and plans to off themselves in a manner that causes distress to others that’s just as objectionable.

It’s not a matter of “loving and adoring” the young man who committed suicide via that Amtrak I was on that pisses me off, it’s the mental anguish he caused the train driver, the inconvenience to the rest of us, the worry of my parents when I was 6 hours overdue (this was before cell phones, so I had no way to call them and tell them I was OK even if there had been a train accident), the horror of the conductor who trekked back down the tracks to confirm that we had, indeed, hit someone, the reactions of the first responders who showed up and had to shovel body parts into bags, the guy who had to hose the gore off the train and the tracks…

Well, yes, presumably his family and friends were even more horrified, disgusted, upset, etc. than we on the train were, but this asshat didn’t just hurt his loved ones, he perpetrated emotional pain on a lot of total strangers, too. That is also wrong. It would have been wrong even if he was unloved, unwanted, and unlikeable.

It’s not a matter of being “sentenced to live”, it’s a matter of not hurting other people. If that young man had swallowed pills or even just blew his head off with a shotgun his suicide would have been less painful and affected fewer people.

You have to be extremely isolated such that your death isn’t going to distress/create pain for other people. Now, again, I’m not being absolutist here - intractable, agonizing pain that cannot be relieved in someone ill might outweigh the pain caused to others by ending the patient’s pain - but that has to be a LOT of pain, with no hope of recovery, to justify ending it all from my viewpoint.

40

Thank you – a voice of reason.