I understand them. I don’t think you’re understanding your second position. You believe deliberately hurting other people is wrong - but you seem to believe that someone hurting another by living is not wrong at all. That’s an exception, and you don’t seem to have any reason for that exception, just reasons to stack up against the results.
That’s not what I’m asking. I’m not saying that your argument determines the matter conclusively. I’m saying that it’s an argument weighed up against whatever other arguments you have against suicide.
I can provide no answer to your question because I don’t believe what you seem to think I do.
Let me try and put it another way, in a very loose mathy way. Let’s imagine that other people’s distress if someone commits suicide is a +2 argument against that suicide. You add to that all your other arguments against suicide, and end up with, let’s say, a +10 argument on one side of the question all told. Great. But if it’s “worth” 2, in an equivalent situation but where the distress is caused by living, then that becomes a -2 to the overall argument against suicide. When you add your other arguments, it’s now a +8 - so for you, the suicide is still a bad idea. But that -2 is still a -2. It’s still an argument on the other side of things, even though it doesn’t conclude or determine the question in and of itself.
I have a friend that I volunteer with, whose husband killed himself not too long after my husband died. So, it hasn’t even been half a year yet, when he tore his whole family (wife and three high school / college age daughters) apart and it’s been incredibly, fantastically difficult ever since. One daughter has further developed an eating disorder, another refuses to come home and deal with her issues and my friend is probably drinking way more than she should. Plus, there’s lots of guilt, questioning, shame and hatred, which perpetuates the cycle. They are all in therapy, but this is really hard for them to come to turns with, as one would expect.
But in the midst of all this aftermath, one finds out that he was making their lives a living hell. Physically abusive (at least to the wife), emotionally abusive to everyone else and just an overall egomaniac who left his family with a barely functioning business (because apparently he was too controlling to teach anything to them and he refused to adequately take care of it himself) that’s not really solvent, children who were afraid of their own shadow and an unbelievably downtrodden spouse who had to find her validation from him because that’s all he would allow. Talk about a nightmare, before he died, that no one would acknowledge, let alone get help for. No wonder he was a walking time bomb and I’m just glad he took none of the others with him.
My point? Those were already shells of human beings because he was so frigging destructive. They’re struggling now, but eventually, they’ll be able to move on, as they’re all intelligent, strong and determined women. But if he’d have lived his natural lifespan? They’d have continued to be wrecked, and then pass that off to their significant others, offspring, co-workers and friends. If he had at his disposal a way to end his life without all the fallout of no will / note and everyone assuming it was their fault? That seems a bazillion times better than how it did play out or what would’ve happened if he’d remained alive.
Your high opinion of my choices is not wanted.
Keep your “Morals” to yourself and get out of the way when others make choices regarding their lives.
Again: Abortion. You don’t like abortion? Don’t have one. Your “Morals” and/or “Gods” do not give you any say in my choices.
For those who say “Suicide is wrong in all circumstances”* - don’t kill yourselves. Stay out of the way of those who choose what you don’t like.
just what is the emotional maturity of someone who can make such sanctimonious holier-than-thou proclamations?
I have this sneaking suspicion that these people are seeing something in themselves that causes extreme reaction. Healthy people do not have a visceral reaction to such questions.
They remind me of the closet gay who champions anti-gay legislation. We had/have one down in S CA - a good, God-Fearing, Fag-Hating State Representative ID’d coming out of a gay bar in Sacramento*. One of his supporters observed:
“it’s better to have one of 'em who opposes 'em than a straight who supports 'em”. A classic
being Sacramento, the owner of the bar took issue with the tag “Gay Bar”:
“We’re not a ‘gay bar’; we are an inclusive bar which welcomes all”.
Ummm… right… gottit
Well, wait: except sometimes. When someone is so very mentally ill as to be unable to make an informed decision, then, yeah, we do stop them from acting. When they seem to be under the influence of outside agencies, we examine the situation and try to get them to make their own decision.
There need to be protections, even against a person acting with and on their own body. (I’d feel the same way about abortion, if I thought that a patient were under emotional control of someone else and wasn’t making their decision freely.)
And where, exactly, did I ever say I wanted everyone else to be like me? I have multiple times acknowledged that different people have a different viewpoint than mine. What makes you think I’m out to impose my ethics on you?
Er… have you mistaken me for someone else? Because I am definitely pro-choice and always have been. Seriously, where is this coming from?
Er… again, I’m not in that camp. I think there are very few circumstances where it could be tolerated, but I’m not of the people saying never nohow no way.
I’m not religious and don’t believe in an afterlife. If a suicidal person who’s mentally ill commits suicide, then they are not harmed because you cannot experience harm after death. A successful suicide never hurts the person dying, they simply won’t be alive to have regrets about it. That’s why I’m fine if mentally ill people want to kill themselves
When two people’s rights come into conflict, you go with the one that affords the most freedom without interference. Suicide is not the business of other busybodies, a person choosing to kill themselves is much less interference than someone else trying to prevent it
“Ben” was in his late fifty’s, an alcoholic and a bit of a dimwit. His hygiene was very much lacking. In the last few months he got worse.
What happened this morning about 9:30 is still fuzzy. He may have fallen from the fire escape, or he may have jump from there or from the roof. Security camera video is being check.
In a cold detached way, I was surprised that there was no sign of were he landed.
It also notes that the entire Catholic medical system - and it is a huge one in CA refuses to participate.
Kaiser (a huge HMO) WILL participate.
I don’t know the drugs involved, but it is possible that some insurers will cover the 'script and others will not.
Since the Federal Govt. prohibits any assistance to deathof anybody, the VA system will not participate.
The Medi-Cal (local Medicare implementation) WILL cover it, using non-Federal money.
As I said, these laws are tiny in coverage - there are more hoops to go through than any other State’s laws.
(Thank the Catholic Church and the GOP)
