# Should raw milk be illegal? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 22, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449 "2014-01-22T14:18:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/81 "2014-01-26T02:40:53Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > . > And an article published by a California dairy retailer, Alta-Dena Dairy, pointed out the more stringent hygiene requirements set for personnel handling Certfied Raw Milk as opposed to those set for people handling pasteurized milk. Alta Dena lied and [lost in court over it.](http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/rawmilk.html) > [@](#): > > During the 1980s, the main producer of raw milk in the United States was the Alta-Dena Certified Dairy, of City of Industry, California. During this period, it falsely advertised that its raw milk products were safe and healthier than pasteurized milk. These claims were challenged in a lawsuit filed in 1985 against Alta-Dena and its affiliate Stueve’s Natural by Consumers Union and the American Public Health Association and later joined by the Alameda County District Attorney. In 1989, a California Superior Court Judge that: (a) **“overwhelming evidence proved that Alta-Dena’s raw (unpasteurized) milk frequently contains dangerous bacteria that cause serious illness”;** (b) the company must stop its false advertising; and (c) that the company’s milk containers and advertising must carry conspicuous warnings for ten years ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/82 "2014-01-26T04:14:57Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > It seems obvious that if the guy misrepresented his academic qualifications, then how can one trust _anything_ he wrote? Let me count the ways. And you ought to go back to grade school and learn how to form compound sentences! ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2014, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/83 "2014-01-26T04:19:14Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Alta Dena lied and [lost in court over it.](http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/rawmilk.html) Do you have documentation for this? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/84 "2014-01-26T04:22:09Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Oh–so naturally what he wrote couldn’t possibly be true. Right. :rolleyes: It does mean that believing it on his say so, over the data provided by the CDC and the FDA, would be … imprudent. In short what he says is as [full](http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/176/3/815.short) of [shit](http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.88.8.1219) as raw milk [often](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022030206723189) is. Put it [this way](http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/fpd.2009.0302?journalCode=fpd): > [@](#): > > Several documented milkborne disease outbreaks occurred from 2000–2008 and were traced back to consumption of raw unpasteurized milk. Numerous people were found to have infections, some were hospitalized, and a few died. In the majority of these outbreaks, the organism associated with the milkborne outbreak was isolated from the implicated product(s) or from subsequent products made at the suspected dairy or source. What he is, is someone who makes stuff up, his credentials as well as his “facts” and assertions. You want to argue that those risks are yours to knowingly take because you prefer the taste … again, your right to be stupid should be respected to no small degree. But your awareness of those risks should be documented and your exposing a child to those risks should not be permissible. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/85 "2014-01-26T04:24:02Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Do you have documentation for this? [Here’s the decision](http://www.casewatch.org/civil/altadena/appeal.pdf) where they lost the appeal to the California Court of Appeals. (PDF) If you bothered to read the link I gave, you would have seen they lost the case and the appeal. Which was linked to in the article. Now, in return, I would like the links I asked for upthread. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/86 "2014-01-26T04:33:11Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Alta Dena lied and [lost in court over it.](http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/rawmilk.html) Page 267 of the first _Book of Lists,_ in 1977. Fredericks did not give a date for the statement in the _Journal;_ his phrasing suggests 1964 (the book’s copyright date; my copy is from the twelfth printing, in 1971). ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/87 "2014-01-26T04:50:09Z")
So this great nutritionist, who has published several books, is too stupid to properly cite his sources. Haven’t found either cite online. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/88 "2014-01-26T05:29:15Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > So this great nutritionist, who has published several books, is too stupid to properly cite his sources. > Haven’t found either cite online. Have you found a rebuttal to the item in _The Book of Lists,_ re the destruction of Vitamins C and D (made by Jeffrey Bernstein)? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2014, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/89 "2014-01-26T05:54:52Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Have you found a rebuttal to the item in _The Book of Lists,_ re the destruction of Vitamins C and D (made by Jeffrey Bernstein)? I don’t have the book. [From here.](http://www.organicpastures.com/nutritional.html) > [@](#): > > Per 100g > Vit C \<0.44 mg 0% RDA > Vit D \<20.0 IU 0% RDA Not really a great source to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/90 "2014-01-27T06:22:22Z")
That depends. Do you consider Organic Pastures more credible than Alta-Dena Dairy? Have you found anything further on the matter in the New York State Journal of Medicine? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/91 "2014-01-27T06:34:06Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > That depends. Do you consider Organic Pastures more credible than Alta-Dena Dairy? > > Have you found anything further on the matter in the New York State Journal of Medicine? Organic Pastures is a proponent of raw milk. As far as the NYSJOM, [only this.](http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000055363) Pretty much useless. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/92 "2014-01-27T06:44:15Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > [He’s not a nutritionist.](http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/fredericks.html) I’ve read the article your link leads to. It makes it sound like Fredericks should have been severely beaten or thrown into prison. That said, can you give me a\* positive\* reference to a nutritionist, or do I have to run to an Independent Scientist? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/93 "2014-01-27T06:57:29Z")
How about the [FDA](http://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/consumers/ucm079516.htm)? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/94 "2014-01-27T12:47:05Z")
But doncha know that the FDA and the CDC are in the pockets of Big Dairy and in on the conspiracy?! Much better to trust the information provided by someone who claims to be a nutritionist but isn’t, who states things that are verifiably false, because he might be right once, than to trust expert oganizations with their “facts.” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/95 "2014-01-27T14:15:35Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I’ve read the article your link leads to. It makes it sound like Fredericks should have been severely beaten or thrown into prison. Actually, the article leads to a conclusion that Fredericks was severely underqualified as a “nutritionist”, made a raft of bogus claims about vitamins and minerals, and sometimes got in trouble with the law. Not a person whose claims about anything food or nutrition-related deserve to be taken at face value. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/96 "2014-01-27T14:49:21Z")
> [@](#): > > That said, can you give me a positive reference to a nutritionist, or do I have to run to an Independent Scientist? Will [this](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6481912) do? > [@](#): > > Meaningful differences in nutritional value between pasteurized and unpasteurized milk have not been demonstrated, and other purported benefits of raw milk consumption have not been substantiated. Conversely, the role of unpasteurized dairy products in the transmission of infectious diseases has been established repeatedly. To effectively counsel patients attracted by the health claims made for raw milk, practicing physicians must understand both the rationale used by proponents of raw milk and the magnitude of the risk involved in drinking raw milk. > > Potter _et al._, _Unpasteurized Milk: the Hazards of a Health Fetish_. JAMA 10/19/84. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/97 "2014-01-27T14:55:55Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Actually, the article leads to a conclusion that Fredericks was severely underqualified as a “nutritionist”, made a raft of bogus claims about vitamins and minerals, and sometimes got in trouble with the law. > > Not a person whose claims about anything food or nutrition-related deserve to be taken at face value. You buy a rope, I’ll go find a tree. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/98 "2014-01-27T15:01:51Z")
It would probably be quicker to just feed him unpasteurized milk. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/99 "2014-01-27T15:34:48Z")
Point, set, and match to **RNATB**. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/100 "2014-01-27T16:18:05Z")
_wildly inappropriate endzone celebration_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449.md?page=6)