# Should raw milk be illegal? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 22, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449 "2014-01-22T14:18:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/121 "2014-01-29T05:52:23Z")
Me okay what? I read your quoted statements. What do the bracketed numbers in the first paragraph mean? Now, you can answer my question: How does this issue stand with the better-known nutritionists (including Adelle Davis, even though I know she is no longer living)? Parrt of the thrust of the first paragraphs seems to be that the more weighty authority is _ipso facto_ (always) correct; sorry, but I don’t automatically root for the Yankees. I know that throughout history many scientists and researchers have bucked the status quo in order to develop fields of knowledge, and I will not immediately close my mind to what is branded “oddball.” That does not mean I am rejecting what you have quoted to me concerning “organic milk”; quite the contrary. I would want to assess a product on the basis of its merits rather than those, or the lack of those, of a particular authority (such as I quote)… ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/122 "2014-01-29T07:49:32Z")
The bracketed numbers referred to references included in the article. [This](http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/davis.html) Adelle Davis? One of Jackmanni’s trademarked first pillars of woo is “The experts have been wrong before.” Indeed they have, but not as often as the quacks have been. You may not always root for the Yankees but when the pitcher for the Yankees and the pitcher for another professional team both say that a ball thrown a certain way tends to behave a certain way I tend to believe it more than when somebody who says they are a professional ball player but actually is a dishwasher says it does. The dishwasher could still be on to something no matter how oddball it is, maybe there are lizard people controlling the country for example, or baseballs really behave exactly opposite of how multiple professional pitchers say they do, but usually betting against it is the better bet. Really not sure what you mean by “better known.” People who write popular books or blogs about how orgainzed medicine an science, the CDC, the FDA, and so on, are all wrong, rather than do actual science? Who have, like Adelle Davis, given dangerously false information out? Don’t know any of them to ask and don’t place much stock in what they say. The raw milk promoters basically follow the same playbooks as the antivaxxers and are often the same people. I care less about the raw milk people because mostly the only people they are putting at any risk are themselves (so long as they are not feeding it to kids). Like with eating puffer fish, you’ve been made aware of the risk and you choose to do, go ahead. But yes just like I think that the public should be aware that uncooked ground beef and chicken are risks for certain diseases, they should be aware that raw milk is as well. The antivaxxer stupidity puts others at risk and therefore crosses my line. Raw milk only crosses my line if fed to kids. Again I give a wide berth to the right of people to do things I think are dumb and there are lots bigger risks than drinking raw milk. You like the taste, you have been informed that there is greater risk and want to anyway, go at it. I’ll resent paying your hospital bill out of my insurance premium but I can live with that. You are allowed to smoke (which is much more dangerous) and you should be allowed to drink raw milk. But you should not be allowed to give cigartettes or raw milk to a child and those who do drink it should be fully informed that current expert opinion finds this behaviors to be associated with increased risks of disease with no increased benefit. Just like smoking. Even if you can find people who think the experts are wrong about that too. ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/123 "2014-01-29T09:13:50Z")
I’ve been drinking a homeopathic solution of raw milk every day of my life with absolutely no ill effects. Take THAT, science! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/124 "2014-01-29T13:12:21Z")
I suspect genuine nutrition professionals wince when Adelle Davis’ name is brought up (just as they do for Carlton Fredericks). Davis’ advice [could be quite risky](http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/davis.html). It is another hallmark of woo for a handful of pseudo-experts to be cited in support of a claim (while ignoring the vast majority of actual experts who have opposing views). ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/125 "2014-01-29T13:42:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t really have any jiggly bits. :o > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Those are _jingly_ bits. I have a lot of piercings. 😃 Intriguing! > [@Guinastasia](#): > > I think you’d be fined for using props, wouldn’t you? 😉 Heh, forgot all about that! ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/126 "2014-01-29T18:33:04Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Me okay what?.. Meaning, “Are you okay?” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/127 "2014-01-29T19:28:30Z")
Right. Again, I am at least not recalling you ( **Dougie** ) as a chronically hostile [potty mouth word deleted] poster. There are few possible explanations for that. I could just not have posted in the same threads as you much in the past and you are one but I’ve not had the pleasure previously. I am old and not remembering. Something is going on that you are acting oddly for you. I’ve found that out after the fact with several posters who started acting uncharacteristically hostile. Or there is some special meaning raw milk has to you. The first is of course possible. The second, maybe but I am not that old. The third is the point of the question. The forth, well if it is the case please inform us. ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/128 "2014-01-29T19:30:48Z")
> [@ktribe808](#): > > The taste of raw milk is very much influenced by the feed the animals are fed. IMO, grass-fed cow milk is the absolute best. Also, the colder the better and of course shake up the milk first. And yes, I did tour the farm before making my first purchase. I am impressed that they have partridges on the farm! The milk is dated and the bottles are sterilized. These Amish have generators for refrigeration and also for the sanitation of the bottles. Grain-fed cow milk has a slight aftertaste and I do not care for it. Same with goats milk. Pasture-fed has a slightly sweet taste and grain-fed tastes a tad bitter to me. > The last time I was there I was amazed to see one of the older boys carrying several DVDs into the home. I asked him HOW he was going to watch the DVDs. Apparently they have a battery-operated DVD player! Cracked me up! I live near some Amish farms and many have generators in their barns for their woodworking equipment. They also have solar panels. Electricity is only a minor worry for them. As far as raw milk: Unfortunately many people are stupid. While they may choose to consume raw milk themselves and not have any issues, they may also make the decision for others and use raw milk or serve to the unwary. While this may be an innocent mistake on their part, that doesn’t help the person who contracts _E. coli_ or _Listeria_ as a result. **A side item:** The school in our area stopped children from bringing items from home for holiday celebrations when a parent, despite the notes sent home asking that peanut s and products which contain peanuts sent peanut butter cookies to a school. Apparently, a mother was unaware of the main ingredient of **peanut butter** cookies. Like I said, if you want raw milk for yourself, fine. If you are an adult and your are willing to accept the potential health risks without attempting to sue if/when you do get sick, that’s fine as well. Unfortunately, most people are unwilling to accept risks without suing others for their own stupidity or carelessness, and as such, we have laws. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/129 "2014-01-29T20:24:26Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The first is of course possible. The second, maybe but I am not that old. The third is the point of the question. The forth, well if it is the case please inform us. The fifth possibility (not precluding any of the others) is cabin fever. We just had a previously (mostly) rational poster fly off the handle in GD and ATMB. Maybe he was buried in snow and subzero temperatures and just couldn’t take it anymore. As for me, the prolonged snow and cold (with -17 and -11F temps the last couple of days) haven’t affected my sunny #()&\*\*^\*(!!! disposition at all. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/130 "2014-01-29T20:50:11Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > Nothing about pasteurization requires homogenization. _ **Pasteurization’s just a heating process, and it can easily be done on non-homogenized milk.** _ I haven’t seen any pasteurized, non-homogenized milk for sale at any of the stores I shop at, but I suspect that’s just due to lack of customer demand. Most folks these days aren’t used to and don’t want milk that separates and has to be shaken before it’s poured. Can it, though? Upthread, **krunen** mentions that skim milk and cream are pasteurized at lower temperatures. The pluralization of “temperatures” suggests that they would need to be pasteurized separately. Not sure that counts as “easily.” OTOH, if **Jane Elliot** wants pasteurized milk that’s not homogenized, she could buy pasteurized skim milk, and pasteurized cream, and combine them on her own, couldn’t she? Or is that too simplistic a view of what she needs? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/131 "2014-01-29T20:52:53Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Now I have to wonder if “I have a cheese cave” will eventually replace the “I have a colander” SDMB meme. I mean, you have your own CAVE – how cool is that? Probably about 45F in the summer. 😃 > [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > It varies somewhat with the mean outside temperature, but I’ll bet it’s pretty consistently cool. Hello. My name is **kaylasdad99**. You ninja’d my joke. Prepare to die. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Elliot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jane_elliot/32/6166_2.png) [@Jane\_Elliot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/132 "2014-01-29T20:57:51Z")
One of the things I’ve started to notice is that it is increasingly more difficult to find cream that isn’t Ultra-Pasteurized for longer shelf life. Ultra-Pasteurized cream is worthless for my needs. However, I think I might start pasteurizing the raw milk I buy for the younger cheeses I make, just for safety’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/133 "2014-01-29T21:02:31Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > I tasted it only once and that was enough. It tasted like a live cow! > [@runner pat](#): > > Would you prefer it tasted like a dead cow? Hey, don’t knock it. Dead cow is pretty tasty. I serve it a lot at my own table, and sometimes invite guests over for some. Not in liquid form, of course. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/134 "2014-01-29T21:03:35Z")
never mind. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/135 "2014-01-29T23:02:40Z")
> [@Jane\_Elliot](#): > > I have a ‘cheese cave’… If I had a cave, I’d be chewing raw umber so I could paint sabre-tooth tiger hunts on the walls, and never get around to making cheese. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/136 "2014-01-29T23:47:51Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Can it, though? Upthread, **krunen** mentions that skim milk and cream are pasteurized at lower temperatures. The pluralization of “temperatures” suggests that they would need to be pasteurized separately. Not sure that counts as “easily.” No, they don’t need to be pasteurized separately at different temperatures. Pasteurization’s about killing nasty bacteria, and the bacteria die at the same temperature in both cream and skimmed milk: either 161 F for 15 seconds, or 145 F for 30 minutes. You just don’t want to heat the milk TOO hot, or you’ll curdle it. [More about milk pasteurization.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization) There’s just not enough commercial demand for pasteurized but unhomogenized milk for the large commercial dairies that supply most of our milk to bother about it. That’s why you don’t find unhomogenized but pasteurized milk for sale at your local Safeway, not because it’s unusually cumbersome to make. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/137 "2014-01-30T07:53:07Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I suspect genuine nutrition professionals wince when Adelle Davis’ name is brought up (just as they do for Carlton Fredericks). > > Davis’ advice [could be quite risky](http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/davis.html). > > It is another hallmark of woo for a handful of pseudo-experts to be cited in support of a claim (while ignoring the vast majority of actual experts who have opposing views). I’d just as soon you not put words in my mouth. I do not treat the words “nutritionist” and “quack” as synonymous. I mentioned Adelle Davis without knowing what list of yours she is on. I too want the kind of information provided by properly qualified nutritionists–but not by some Dives you may choose, who just drops crumbs to Lazarus. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/138 "2014-01-30T08:05:39Z")
Uh, _The Book of Lists_ isn’t exactly a scholarly journal either, dude. (Is that my “arrogance” showing?) ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/139 "2014-01-30T08:11:27Z")
I don’t care if it is. I like research and can always consult a “scholarly journal” to verify what’s in the _Book of Lists._ McLuhan notwithstanding, the medium is **not** the message. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/140 "2014-01-30T10:41:22Z")
Sometimes it can be a pretty effective proxy, though, when one is in a hurry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449.md?page=8)