# Should raw milk be illegal? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 22, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449 "2014-01-22T14:18:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/141 "2014-01-30T10:54:00Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I’d just as soon you not put words in my mouth. I do not treat the words “nutritionist” and “quack” as synonymous. I’m confident that virtaully every nutritionist alive feels the same way. Which I gather, is why so many of them would prefer that discussions of their profession and its practitioners not spend TOO much time focusing on her presence in their ranks. > [@](#): > > I mentioned Adelle Davis without knowing what list of yours she is on. I too want the kind of information provided by properly qualified nutritionists–but not by some Dives you may choose, who just drops crumbs to Lazarus. 😕 “Dives?” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/142 "2014-01-30T12:45:51Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > … I do not treat the words “nutritionist” and “quack” as synonymous. I mentioned Adelle Davis without knowing what list of yours she is on. I too want the kind of information provided by properly qualified nutritionists–but not by some Dives you may choose, who just drops crumbs to Lazarus. Given that the names you have so far brought up are people who have either no actual qualifications, or who are so infamous as quacks and sources of misinformation that they merit their own page on quackwatch, and that you dismiss peer reviewed journal articles, analyses by the sorts of expert bodies that real dieticians (an actual certified professional status) and even nutritionists (does [not really mean any qualification](http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/nutrition/whats-the-difference-between-a-dietitian-and-a-nutritionist.html#b) at all) use as guidance it is curious to wonder what counts as a “properly qualified nutritionist” other than someone, anyone, who is saying something that you want to hear. Nutritionists are not all quacks but many quacks call themselves nutritionists. FWIW here is [a fact sheet from the American Dietician Association](http://www.eatright.org/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=6442451312) > [@](#): > > MYTH: “Raw” milk (unpasteurized) is safer and more > natural that pasteurized milk. > FACTS: > • Consuming unpasteurized or “raw” milk presents severe > food safety risks … [From the Dieticians of Canada:](http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-Month/Nutrition-Month-2014/Myths.aspx) > [@](#): > > THE TRUTH: Pasteurization has little impact on the nutrients in milk. Pasteurization is a simple heat treatment that destroys potentially harmful bacteria sometimes found in milk. This is an important process that helps to make milk safe for Canadians to drink. It is not safe to drink unpasteurized (raw) milk because it might contain bacteria that can be harmful to your health. Pasteurized milk is a natural source of 15 essential nutrients, plus it’s fortified with vitamin D (raw milk isn’t). Drink two cups (500 mL) of lower-fat milk each day to get the calcium and vitamin D you need to help build and maintain healthy bones I know … more crumbs. Lazarus is getting too many carbs. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/143 "2014-01-30T13:48:58Z")
Intersting (to me anyway) tidbit found wandering … [organic milk](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/experts-organic-milk-lasts-longer/) is often ultrapasteurized. > [@](#): > > … because organic products often have to travel farther to reach store shelves since it is not produced throughout the country. > > The process that gives the milk a longer shelf life is called ultrahigh temperature (UHT) processing or treatment, in which milk is heated to 280 degrees Fahrenheit (138 degrees Celsius) for two to four seconds, killing any bacteria in it. > > Compare that to pasteurization, the standard preservation process. There are two types of pasteurization: “low temperature, long time,” in which milk is heated to 145 degrees F (63 degrees C) for at least 30 minutes\*, or the more common “high temperature, short time,” in which milk is heated to roughly 160 degrees F (71 degrees C) for at least 15 seconds. > > The different temperatures hint at why UHT-treated milk lasts longer: Pasteurization doesn’t kill all bacteria in the milk, just enough so that you don’t get a disease with your milk mustache. UHT, on the other hand, kills everything. > > Retailers typically give pasteurized milk an expiration date of four to six days. Ahead of that, however, was up to six days of processing and shipping, so total shelf life after pasteurization is probably up to two weeks. Milk that undergoes UHT doesn’t need to be refrigerated and can sit on the shelf for up to six months. … Oh, [another](http://ohioline.osu.edu/fse-fact/pdf/0003.pdf) source fact sheet with references on the lack of any meaningful nutritional differences between raw and pasteurized milk. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/144 "2014-01-30T13:52:23Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] [From the Dieticians of Canada:](http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-Month/Nutrition-Month-2014/Myths.aspx) [/QUOTE] Wasn’t “Dieticians of Canada” a Warren Zevon followup to “Werewolves of London”? I’m surprised **dougie** hasn’t brought up that ancient classic “Doctors don’t know anything about nutrition” (another pillar of woo). By the way, [a pathogen that can be found in raw milk](http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/01/state-tests-find-listeria-contamination-in-raw-milk-from-south-dakota-dairy-farm/#.UupYiPuHNjs) was in the news yesterday (two Colorado brothers got probation in connection with a Listeria outbreak that killed 33 people and was traced to unsanitary conditions at their cantaloupe farm). They claimed that their operation had been rated as “superior” in an inspection not long before the outbreak. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/145 "2014-01-30T14:14:54Z")
UHT and apparently regular pasteurization (to a lesser degree) change the taste profile of the milk, hence why some prefer the raw stuff food safety be damned. Anyone with any idea why irradiation is not used? Irradiation is known to not change the flavor profile of food at all, leaves no radiation in the food, and can, similarly to UHT, completely kill off the bacteria. Just a marketing issue? Cost? Some technical issue? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/146 "2014-01-30T14:17:22Z")
Is there a thread about these Pillars of Woo somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/147 "2014-01-30T14:44:53Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Anyone with any idea why irradiation is not used? Irradiation is known to not change the flavor profile of food at all, leaves no radiation in the food, and can, similarly to UHT, completely kill off the bacteria. Just a marketing issue? Cost? Some technical issue? Probably simply that people are scared of it. And I’ve been doing some reading on the web. Apparently you can render raw milk safe by heating it to 145 degrees Fahrenheit for thirty minutes. That’s a lower temperature than the one at which milk is pasteurized commercially. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/148 "2014-01-30T14:53:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Is there a thread about these Pillars of Woo somewhere? Don’t think so. My masterwork, “The Seven Pillars of Woo”\* is due to be released in paperback and as an e-book in the near future. \*inspired by T.E. Lawrence. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/149 "2014-01-30T14:54:22Z")
It would be awesomely ironic if you gave it away for free in an infomercial. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/150 "2014-01-30T15:13:38Z")
Well so far I know of three … 1. Science was wrong before. 2. I will be vindicated one day, bwa-ha-haaa! 3. They Don’t Want You To Know 🙂 Collect all seven and you win a valuable prize. (And get to give Lazurus some milk to wash down all those crumbs.) Does the handful of pseudoexperts equals an unsettled controversy count as a pillar too? Or the “I have better things to do with my time” tactic when shown evidence that what they say is complete crap? I may be up to five! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/151 "2014-01-30T15:29:35Z")
Well, you left out “doctors don’t know anything about…” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/152 "2014-01-30T16:03:41Z")
Six! Teamwork! I’ll share the prize. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/153 "2014-01-30T16:07:47Z")
Pillar #7: this person is a parent / teacher / other person with lots of experience, which gives them way more knowledge about a topic than some scientist with a bunch of silly degrees. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/154 "2014-01-30T16:08:37Z")
How about the “It’s natural!” argument? ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Elliot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jane_elliot/32/6166_2.png) [@Jane\_Elliot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/155 "2014-01-30T16:11:37Z")
“They laughed at Galileo” should really be in there somewhere. I guess it would fall under #2. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/156 "2014-01-30T16:16:18Z")
[“What’s the harm?”](http://whatstheharm.net/) is a woo thing. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/157 "2014-01-30T16:23:51Z")
Raw milk is not illegal anywhere. If you want raw milk, you’re perfectly free to get some land out in the country, raise your own cows, and drink whatever you want that comes out of them, and nobody will arrest you for it. This is in contrast to, say, marijuana, which is illegal, and which can get you arrested just for producing it for personal consumption. It is, however, illegal to sell it. This is perfectly reasonable, and as it should be. You have the right to do dangerous things to yourself, but you do not have the right to profit off of danger to others. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/158 "2014-01-30T17:25:25Z")
So far, a thread about the relative health merits, nutrition and safety questions, and legality issues about raw milk have netted us references to: [ul] [li]the NY Yankees[/li][li]football endzone celebrations (\*two \*sports metaphors in a food-safety thread FTW!)[/li][li]eunuchs[/li][li]cabin fever[/li][li]painting sabre-tooth tigers on cave walls[/li][li]Lazarus[/li][li]the “Werewolves of London” song[/li][li]Galileo[/li][li]marijuana[/li][/ul] … and yet, we still managed to stay mostly on-topic. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/159 "2014-01-30T19:17:31Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Or the “I have better things to do with my time” tactic when shown evidence that what they say is complete crap? This is one of my favorites (it appears in the appendices under “common tactics and tropes of the woo-prone”). It is typically expressed either as “you must have lots of time on your hands” or “I have better things to do with _my_ time”. Hilariously, these nose-in-the-air pronouncements generally are made after the person has posted numerous walls of text and been shot down repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449/160 "2014-01-31T08:17:43Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Wasn’t “Dieticians of Canada” a Warren Zevon followup to “Werewolves of London”? > > \*\*I’m surprised **dougie** hasn’t brought up that ancient classic “Doctors don’t know anything about nutrition” (another pillar of woo). > \*\* > By the way, [a pathogen that can be found in raw milk](http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2014/01/state-tests-find-listeria-contamination-in-raw-milk-from-south-dakota-dairy-farm/#.UupYiPuHNjs) was in the news yesterday (two Colorado brothers got probation in connection with a Listeria outbreak that killed 33 people and was traced to unsanitary conditions at their cantaloupe farm). They claimed that their operation had been rated as “superior” in an inspection not long before the outbreak. I bolded one of your statements for a reason: What you mean seems to be that you are surprised that I haven’t lived up to your wilder suppostitions, which would make me fodder for more of your boorish remarks. And just where did you get that ridiculous term “Pillars of Woo”? :rolleyes: “Dives”, FYI, was the name given to the “rich man” (for that is the meaning in Latin) in Jesus’ parable in the Gospel of Luke, Chapter 16. Dieticians of Canada? Fine and dandy. No argument there about an authoritative source. 🙂 Again FYI, I have been drinking 2% pasteurized and homogenized milk for at least 30 years; I am 6’2" and husky (to be honest, there’s a male gene, in my Mom’s family, for tallness). 🙂 My objective is to get the most out of milk, prepared for consumption by whatever means. I believe I have the right to reliable information–from whatever source derived. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-raw-milk-be-illegal/679449.md?page=9)