# Should religious groups be allowed in public schools? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633 "2003-06-18T04:47:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/21 "2003-06-18T22:59:06Z")
The [Canadian Charter of Rights of Freedoms](http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/index.html#libertes) provides constitutional protection for various basic rights and freedoms. Section 2 if the equivalent of the First Amendment: > [@](#): > > **2.** Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: > > a) **freedom of conscience and religion;** > b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication; > c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and > d) freedom of association. Although this provision does not expressly bar government “establishment” of a religion in the same way as the First Amendment, in the first Supreme Court case that interpreted the section, the Court unanimously held that s. 2(a) bars governments from favouring one religion over another. In the words of Chief Justice Dickson, speaking for the Court, at p. 351: > [@](#): > > …it [is] constitutionally incompetent for the federal Parliament to provide legislative preference for any one religion at the expense of those of another religious persuasion. There is also section [section 15](http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/index.html#egalite) of the _Charter_ which prohbits discrimination on a variety of grounds, including religion. Based on these provisions, the Ontario courts have held that mandatory school prayer and religious instruction is not permissible in the public schools. However, that doesn’t mean that individual students are barred from religious activities in the schools, which I would assume is protected by s. 2 and s. 15 of the _Charter_. As others have commented, we don’t have enough facts to really assess if there is a constitutional problem in the OP’s situation. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/22 "2003-06-19T06:50:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > rjung: How the Christian students would feel about that has absolutely nothing to do with its legality. The Scientoligists have the same rights as the Christians to start a school club. Oh, I agree completely about the legality of the matter – I just have a suspicion that, if we were to actually put the theory into practice, the Christian students would be rather quick to deny the Scientologists the same rights that they themselves enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/23 "2003-06-19T07:23:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Oh, I agree completely about the legality of the matter – I just have a suspicion that, if we were to actually put the theory into practice, the Christian students would be rather quick to deny the Scientologists the same rights that they themselves enjoy. \*\* The perhaps you can cite some case wherein Christian students _have_ demanded the shut-down of any clubs catering to Scientologists, Buddhists, Hindus or Moslems (to name a few) in public schools. ---
**Author:** ![Blackdragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Blackdragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackdragon)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/24 "2003-06-19T07:36:39Z")
I have a question? People against religion in school, do they believe in G-d? I bet they say they do. Who are they to renounce G-d in any form. 95% of the people on earth believe in a higher power. Once a again the lawyers have screwed us. They have us believing the Constitution says Freedom from Religion instead of Freedom of Religion. The Ones pointing their fingers trying to find an oppressor have ultimately become the tyrrant themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/25 "2003-06-19T08:05:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blackdragon \* > **95% of the people on earth believe in a higher power.** Incorrect. At _least_ 14% of the world’s population does not believe in a higher power. Cite: [http://www.adherents.com/Religions\_By\_Adherents.html](http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html) > [@](#): > > \*\*They have us believing the Constitution says Freedom from Religion instead of Freedom of Religion. \*\* You _have_ freedom of religion. In order to ensure that the government does not remove one’s freedom of religion by suggesting that a particular religion is government sponsored, it is restrained from elevating elevate any one religion over any other religion. The easiest way to do so it to remove all religion from government. When that is not desireable (such as student-run religious clubs), the government must make sure that it is not discriminating against any religion by denying them the same privilidges. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/26 "2003-06-19T18:09:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > The perhaps you can cite some case wherein Christian students _have_ demanded the shut-down of any clubs catering to Scientologists, Buddhists, Hindus or Moslems (to name a few) in public schools. How about Satanists? > [@](#): > > [**High School Satanism Club Prompts Parental Outrage**](http://amightywind.com/prophecys/satanclub.htm) > A group of San Mateo High School students trying to stir up controversy formed a club based on Satanism, a religion typically associated with hedonistic philosophy and with the rituals of black magic. > > Calling themselves The Satanic Thought Society, co-president of the club James Doolittle admits he originally started the club with his friend Matt Heeney to “rile things up a bit.” > > But now that the two juniors have studied the teachings of Anton LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan, they say Satanism helps people to express themselves. > > _…snip…_ > > Pam Cachay said she couldn’t believe it when her 10th-grade daughter told her it was announced on the school’s loudspeaker that a Satanism club had formed. > > “The parents I’ve talked to are outraged,” she said. > > Her 15-year-old daughter, Larena Whattam, was equally offended when she heard about the club. > > “I was completely appalled. I’m a Christian and I love God,” said Whattam, who is member of the school’s Christian Club. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/27 "2003-06-19T18:13:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blackdragon \* > They have us believing the Constitution says Freedom from Religion instead of Freedom of Religion. The Ones pointing their fingers trying to find an oppressor have ultimately become the tyrrant themselves. Oh yeah, just look at [all the ways](http://www.infidels.org/misc/humor/lioaca.html) Christians have been oppressed in the United States. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/28 "2003-06-19T19:27:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blackdragon \* > \*\*I have a question? People against religion in school, do they believe in G-d? I bet they say they do. Who are they to renounce G-d in any form. 95% of the people on earth believe in a higher power. Once a again the lawyers have screwed us. They have us believing the Constitution says Freedom from Religion instead of Freedom of Religion. The Ones pointing their fingers trying to find an oppressor have ultimately become the tyrrant themselves. \*\* The pastor in the Protestant church I attended in my teens was definitely against religion in school. He felt that having a secular entity such as a public school require a religious activity such as prayer cheapened the act. He also said he wanted the government (of which the public schools are a part) to keep its hands out of the church’s provenance. “I won’t teach algebra in church,” he said, “if the government won’t try to teach religion in school.” Instead, he taught that families should arrange a time together at the beginning or end of the day, when the distractions of the school and the workplace were removed, to pray together; then it would have some worth and meaning. And I assure you, he did believe in God and was as sincere a person as I have ever met. Freedom of religion also implies freedom from religion. If you permit the government to become involved, which particular religion should they promote? The one that says you should write “G-d” instead of “God?” Or the one that says you should follow the teachings of the Pope? Or the one that says you should not play cards or drink coffee? No, better not even start down that road. Let the church/temple/synagogue/meeting house do its job and let the schools attend to reading, thinking critically, math, the scientific method, geography, and all the other subjects the religious institutions are not set up to do. A neighbor of mine, a devout Christian, was concerned about her daughter attending public school because, as she said, “You can’t pray in school.” I pointed out to her that no one could REQUIRE you to pray in public school, but that if little Janie wanted to bow her head in quiet prayer before lunch, or whenever, as long as she was not disruptive or attempting to require others to do so, no one could forbid it. What IS forbidden is for the teacher or other authority to direct the students to pray. Getting back to the OP, if the Christian Club is a school requirement of some kind, or if they are granted privileges that others are not, you may have a point. However, it’s probably likely that the Chess Club or the band or the football team or the Future Homemakers’ Club would be allowed to have lunchtime meetings and to hand out leaflets too. Anyone who’s not interested in the opinions of any of the above has only to say “No, thank you.” BTW, Blackdragon, anyone who wants to renounce any deity in any form should be entitled to do so. For you, me, or anyone else to forbid them to do so would be as wrong as for me or anyone else to require you to do so. I hope you will think about this and realize that this protects you, too, and keeps the government from setting up some religion other than the one you currenly espouse as the official one and requiring you to adhere to its rules. ---
**Author:** ![Blackdragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Blackdragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackdragon)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/29 "2003-06-20T03:18:50Z")
A couple of points I like to make about what I believe: Religion should not be taught in public schools. However anyone wishing to practice should be allowed. This is not happening. Protection becomes persecution when and where a person or persons engaged in a faith based act are punished or scorn for their beliefs. Again I do not believe any religion should be introduced or promoted in public schools. God is not religous, religion is a Greek word meaning “of man”. I’m tired and furious of people trying to take God out of the schools AND our society. BTW Joe Random you got the stats wrong. Agnostics believe in a higher power, just not in a religion. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/30 "2003-06-20T03:47:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blackdragon \* > **God is not religous.** It is true that not all religions require a God, and that one can believe in God without following a religion. However, the overlap is so large as to make the concepts almost indistinguishable for all practical purposes. The connotation of God = religion is simply too strong to ignore. > [@](#): > > \*\*BTW Joe Random you got the stats wrong. Agnostics believe in a higher power, just not in a religion. \*\* Agnostics claim that the existance of God can never be proven or disproven, and therefore neither believe nor disbelieve in the concept of God. I suppose that there could be _some_ agnostics who believe in God and merely feel that their belief can never be justified by evidence, but to claim that _all_ Agnostocs believe in God is just wishful thinking on your part. ---
**Author:** ![Parkerz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@Parkerz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parkerz)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/31 "2003-06-20T06:56:02Z")
Yes Canada has a freedom of speech act, it is a good point that other groups may form, but the chances of getting it approved and finding a teacher that wants to supervise it is not that easy. Teachers don’t want to be a part of a controversial group like an aetheist club (not saying I am one because I am not) ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/32 "2003-06-20T07:30:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > The perhaps you can cite some case wherein Christian students have demanded the shut-down of any clubs catering to Scientologists, Buddhists, Hindus or Moslems (to name a few) in public schools. > > How about Satanists? \*\* Considering the types of practices that are typically associated with Satanism, that should come as no surprise. I’m sure that Christians aren’t the only ones who would find them disturbing. Moreover, your example actually demonstrates my point. There don’t appear to be any cases of Christian students demanding the abolotion of Scientology clubs – or Buddhist clubs, or Hindus, or whatnot. The only example you’ve been able to cite pertains to Satanism – a decidedly **extreme** group by any standard, and which is commonly believed to have illegal and dangerous practices. (One might disagree with that claim – erroneously, IMO – but the point remains. Their motivation would be public safety, rather than mere doctrinal disagreement.) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/33 "2003-06-20T13:06:23Z")
JThunder- LaVeyan Satanism isn’t the same as “criminal” Satanism- it reveres individualism, reason & passion, one’s “life-force”, and even animal life. Thus, it does not practices sacrifice of animals or literal sacrifice of people. Essentially, it’s self-worship, using “Satan” as a symbol of resistance to authority. This is not a defense of LeVeyanism, just an explanation. Blackdragon- actually the word “religion” is from Latin, meaning “to bind back”, that is- connecting us back to our ancestors and to our Creator. Also, agnostics do NOT believe in a Higher Power- they profess not to know whether or not there is one. The word comes from Greek “a-gnostic”, “not knowing”. If you believe that God gives us a system of worship, ethics & ritual by which to approach Him/Her, then you must also concede that God has a religious aspect. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/34 "2003-06-20T19:27:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blackdragon \* > Religion should not be taught in public schools. However anyone wishing to practice should be allowed. This is not happening. Cite? I’m unaware of any instances where an _individual_ is prohibited and/or scorned and/or punished for practicing his (or her) faith on public school grounds. There have been cases against instances when religious practices have been **promoted by the school faculty** or sponsored by **outside groups,** but I trust you’ll agree that those situations are improper case of prolestyzing to a captive audience. ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/35 "2003-06-20T20:30:38Z")
Interestingly enough, to form a student group at my (public and former) high school, the group needed a faculty sponsor. I don’t know what this adds to the debate, other than it further blurs the line between what is and isn’t “school-sponsored.” ---
**Author:** ![Elenfair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cc9497/32.png) [@Elenfair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elenfair)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/36 "2003-06-20T20:35:16Z")
Canadian chiming in. I used to go to a public elementary school, and then a public high school. We had religious clubs, and they were perfectly “legal”. If there was demand for them, they were held. Sometimes teachers led them, sometimes a parent. In elementary school, a bunch of catholic parents had “preparation” classes for kidlets who wanted to do their first communion and their confirmation. Parents used school space, and held these classes before school, or at lunch. Didn’t seem to upset anyone… In my highschool, we had an association of Jewish students led by a parent, and a “bible study group” which was led by a teacher who happened to be a devout catholic. I don’t recall groups stepping on each others’ toes at all. In fact, we held a multicultural week where we had kids from different religions and ethnicities set up booths and stuff - and we had music from different cultures blaring away at lunchtime… ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/37 "2003-06-21T07:00:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriarTed \* > \*\*JThunder- LaVeyan Satanism isn’t the same as “criminal” Satanism- it reveres individualism, reason & passion, one’s “life-force”, and even animal life. \*\* A point which I **specifically** and **explicitly** addressed. _For the sake of argument_, let us assume that the Christian students are indeed wrong in their assessment of Satanism. The point still remains that the students are motivated by the _perceived dangers_ of Satanism, and not by mere doctrinal disagreement. If they were, then they would have been calling for the abolition of _any and all_ non-Christian groups on campus. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/38 "2003-06-23T17:39:37Z")
JThunder- my bad, I missed that. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/39 "2003-06-23T18:26:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > _For the sake of argument_, let us assume that the Christian students are indeed wrong in their assessment of Satanism. The point still remains that the students are motivated by the _perceived dangers_ of Satanism, and not by mere doctrinal disagreement. So the Satanists should be banned because of the ignorance of the Christian students? 😕 By that logic, if some students wanted to start a school Islam Club, and some other students said “That’s promoting terrorism!”, then the club should be shut down? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633/40 "2003-06-23T19:10:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*So the Satanists should be banned because of the ignorance of the Christian students? 😕 > > By that logic, if some students wanted to start a school Islam Club, and some other students said “That’s promoting terrorism!”, then the club should be shut down? \*\* Actually, I believe the students started their Satanist club not because they believed in its tenets, but simply to stir up trouble - > [@](#): > > Calling themselves The Satanic Thought Society, co-president of the club James Doolittle admits he originally started the club with his friend Matt Heeney to “rile things up a bit.” In other words, they were not attempting the free practice of their religion, but just being disruptive. This would be different from a club of Muslims who wanted really to practice their religion. I suspect much alleged Satanist activity in high school is the same kind of bid for attention, rather than evidence of a commitment either to Satanism or to freedom of religion. Just spoiled kids. That having been said, I would have granted them their charter, assigned them an advisor, and ignored their foolishness. It’s no fun being outrageous if no one gives a shit. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-religious-groups-be-allowed-in-public-schools/182633.md?page=3)