# Should Romney's six month extension on his 2011 tax return be an issue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 15, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880 "2012-04-15T21:02:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/61 "2012-04-17T17:28:58Z")
From a personal perspective, I can imagine wanting to take the most amount of time allowed by law to ensure you’ve filed what is necessary and are granted the deductions due to you. From a politial perspective, I can’t see this as anything but a downside. So for the Demcrats looking at this and saying “how dare he!” let me ask why he would want to announce, three weeks before the general election, about how rich he really is, how much he really pays in taxes and how many companies he has a toe dipped into? Why wouldn’t he just want to get that out of the way now and it’s done and gone by November? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/62 "2012-04-17T18:47:33Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > But his 2011 estimated return was provided along with his final 2010 return back in January. Nearly every article discussing the tax return release referenced both 2010 and 2011 income and tax information. If he is trying to hide something, he is doing the absolutely worst possible job a person could do. > > Now this statement is just ludicrously false. His effective tax rate is 15.2%. For 80% of U.S. taxpayers, the highest **marginal rate** is 15%. In case you are missing the point, it is literally impossible for these people to pay higher than 15% even if you did not allow any deductions (including the standard deduction). > > According to [this table](http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?Docid=3277&DocTypeID=2) at the Tax Policy Center, you don’t get above Romney’s 15.2% effective tax rate until you get to the top 95% of taxpayers. Here’s how it breaks down. > > 0-20%: -12.3% > 20-40%: -4.2% > 40-60%: 4.1% > 60-80%: 8.2% > 80-90%: 11.0% > 90-95%: 13.8% > 95-99%: 19.2% > 99-100%: 24.0% > > So, please tell me how you define “most Americans” or “most people”? I’d like to see how you come up with your claim that he pays a significantly lower tax rate than most people. A very good point that is always ignored in discussions such as these, mainly because many people aren’t equipped to understand it (as this thread has shown) . ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/63 "2012-04-17T19:27:37Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > and the coverage in the press of this is? They trigger on the actual return. You mean this week? Oh, it’s none because the story is that he hasn’t filed his return. If you mean when he released it back in January along with his 2010 return, then essentially every single article that I can find talking about the release of his 2010 return also talks about the release of his estimated 2011 return. In other words, it got tons of coverage, but people are quick to forget. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/64 "2012-04-17T19:31:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The Obama campaign just e-mailed me [a link](http://www.barackobama.com/buffett-rule?source=em12_20120416_sc_act&utm_medium=email&utm_source=obama&utm_campaign=em12_20120416_sc_act&email=neilambekar%40yahoo.com&zip=32765) to a gadget that compares your net tax rate to Romney’s. This is just an unbelievably evil lie that the Obama campaign is now spouting off. This is the sort of thing that just poisons our country, and Obama should be ashamed to put that out. I’m not pitting you obviously, but I am pitting his campaign. [Obama’s Pass the Buffett Rule](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=648692) ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/65 "2012-04-17T19:37:26Z")
Democrat here: It is not an issue. It may be played as an issue, and I think that will be a mistake. Romney has broken no laws by this, broken no rules by this (written or unwritten) and not taken advantage of any rule that is not available to the public at large. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/66 "2012-04-17T20:17:49Z")
How is it a lie to compare my _total_ tax rate to Romney’s? If anything, the lie is in separating out one kind of income tax from another kind, and saying that only one of them matters. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/67 "2012-04-17T20:25:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How is it a lie to compare my _total_ tax rate to Romney’s? Because it doesn’t. As has been demonstrated in this thread, Romney’s 13.9% is for Federal Income Tax alone. Goodness knows what the web site is calculating, but it is certainly not just the Federal Income Tax. An example: enter $44,000 income for a single person. The absolute maximum Federal Income tax tax you would pay (one exemption, standard deduction) is $4,750, or 10.8% The Obama web site says 19.6% Either they are lying by calculating incorrectly, or perform a deception that is tantamount to a lie by not comparing the same things. Heck, I’m not even a Republican and I support increasing taxes on the wealthy (actually, on most people), but I think this Obama tactic is pretty disgraceful. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/68 "2012-04-17T20:26:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How is it a lie to compare my _total_ tax rate to Romney’s? If anything, the lie is in separating out one kind of income tax from another kind, and saying that only one of them matters. It’s a lie because it isn’t comparing your tax rate to Romney’s. They are making up absurdly high tax rates and saying that those are what a typical person says and comparing it to Romney’s. I mean seriously, saying for example, that a typical single person making $20,000 a year pays a rate of 15.5%; how can that be anything other than a lie. Please explain how it is not lying? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/69 "2012-04-18T00:58:56Z")
I was assuming it looks at total federal taxes, but I still don’t think that could get you to 15.5% on a $20k income. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/70 "2012-04-18T02:17:40Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > According to [this table](http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?Docid=3277&DocTypeID=2) at the Tax Policy Center, you don’t get above Romney’s 15.2% effective tax rate until you get to the top 95% of taxpayers. Here’s how it breaks down. > > 0-20%: -12.3% > 20-40%: -4.2% > 40-60%: 4.1% > 60-80%: 8.2% > 80-90%: 11.0% > 90-95%: 13.8% > 95-99%: 19.2% > 99-100%: 24.0% > > So, please tell me how you define “most Americans” or “most people”? I’d like to see how you come up with your claim that he pays a significantly lower tax rate than most people. According to your own cite, those at the 80+ percentile level (hell, even my lowly ass is in that group), pay 15.7% of their AGI in Federal taxes, not including their employer’s contribution, and that’s despite a 2 point reduction in SS contributions for that particular year. So I pay a higher percentage on my taxable income than Romney, even in a year when I get a break on SS contributions. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/71 "2012-04-18T03:15:40Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > According to your own cite, those at the 80+ percentile level (hell, even my lowly ass is in that group), pay 15.7% of their AGI in Federal taxes, not including their employer’s contribution, and that’s despite a 2 point reduction in SS contributions for that particular year. So I pay a higher percentage on my taxable income than Romney, even in a year when I get a break on SS contributions. Okay, so like I said, how is 20% most people and how is 15.2% significantly lower than 15.9%? You do realize I was responding to a post, right? I wasn’t making the argument that Romney pays enough in taxes. As an aside, I actually believe that carried interest should be taxed as ordinary income, which would significantly raise Romney’s tax bill. A person should have to have capital at risk in order to pay taxes at a capital gains rate. Having said that, no one has seriously made that proposal, which I would support. Unfortunately, the Democrats have made the extraordinarily stupid Buffett tax proposal (along with other stupid proposals), and the Republicans are against everything. In other words, both sides are making populist stands that don’t make good sense. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/72 "2012-04-18T03:33:11Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > Okay, so like I said, how is 20% most people and how is 15.2% significantly lower than 15.9%? You do realize I was responding to a post, right? I wasn’t making the argument that Romney pays enough in taxes. I’m not the person who claimed “most people” paid more, I was simply pointing out that a hell of a lot more than the top 5% do. In fact, the average wage earner pays more than Mitt, as they pay 15.6%, even with the 2 point reduction in SS contributions for 2011. I’m looking forward to seeing how the Republicans are going to sell the American public on how someone who raked in 20 large last year pays a lower percentage than the average American. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/73 "2012-04-18T03:58:58Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > I’m not the person who claimed “most people” paid more, I was simply pointing out that a hell of a lot more than the top 5% do. In fact, the average wage earner pays more than Mitt, as they pay 15.6%, even with the 2 point reduction in SS contributions for 2011. What are you talking about? Are you even trying to make sense? I said that the he’s pays a higher effective income tax rate than all but the top 5%, which is true. He pays a higher effective total federal tax rate than all but the top 20%, which you seemed to agree with since you stated it yourself. Now you are stating that the average wage earner pays more. How is the top 20% of all wage earners the average wage earner? > [@DMC](#): > > I’m looking forward to seeing how the Republicans are going to sell the American public on how someone who raked in 20 large last year pays a lower percentage than the average American. Again, how is he paying lower than the average American? How can you possibly come up with any meaningful definition for the average American that excludes the bottom 80% of all income earners? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/74 "2012-04-18T04:36:44Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > What are you talking about? Are you even trying to make sense? No, of course not. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I said that the he’s pays a higher effective income tax rate than all but the top 5%, which is true. No you didn’t. You said “effective tax rate”, not “effective income tax rate”. Some people include SS and FICA, some don’t. If you want to make the claim that he pays a higher percentage of his income than average, but only if you want to carefully select which of our federal tax liabilities to include, let me know how that plays out for you. > [@](#): > > He pays a higher effective total federal tax rate than all but the top 20%, which you seemed to agree with since you stated it yourself. Now you are stating that the average wage earner pays more. How is the top 20% of all wage earners the average wage earner? I’m using calculations that are from your cite. Feel free to take it up with them. In the “ALL” group, they show 11.5 percent of AGI for income and 4.1 for payroll. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/75 "2012-04-18T05:32:19Z")
I think the idea that he’s hiding away his current tax filing because of some perceived political risk is ridiculous for a VERY easy to understand reason. He can simply arrange his taxes to pay pretty much any amount his advisers tell him isn’t too politically dangerous. He can choose to not claim all possible exemptions and deductions. He can certainly afford to pay some more, and if he thinks it will help him get elected, he WILL certainly pay more. I’d say keep an eye out for him filing something in 2013 to amend his 2011 taxes, but I’m hopeful by that time no one will care. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/76 "2012-04-18T05:40:52Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > No you didn’t. You said “effective tax rate”, not “effective income tax rate”. Some people include SS and FICA, some don’t. If you want to make the claim that he pays a higher percentage of his income than average, but only if you want to carefully select which of our federal tax liabilities to include, let me know how that plays out for you. The thread is about federal income tax returns. The statistics I quoted are all federal income tax statistics. It is idiotic for you to claim that I was not talking about federal income tax rates when I quoted the federal income tax rates directly in my post. It’s not even an arguable point. I’m perfectly willing to admit that effective income tax rate can be an ambiguous term. However, it is not ambiguous in the context of my statement since I provided statistics that make it 100% crystal clear what I meant by the term. Furthermore, you even quote my questions in your post when I directly ask about “most Americans” and “significantly lower”. Are you actually trying to claim that isn’t what you were responding to? Why quote that if that’s not what you were responding to? > [@DMC](#): > > I’m using calculations that are from your cite. Feel free to take it up with them. In the “ALL” group, they show 11.5 percent of AGI for income and 4.1 for payroll. You are arguing dishonestly now. You stated 80+% and 15.7% (from the 80-90% row) in your original post as your barometer. Now, you would like to instead claim the all row of 11.5% and 4.1%. It’s of course worth pointing out that the bottom 80% pays an arithmetic average of 5.7% and 4.9% leading the all category to be heavily skewed by the top quintile. Therefore, you are not only changing your barometer midway through your argument, you are also improperly using the statistics now with an intent to deceive. Because as I stated before, you are coming up with a meaningless definition for the average American when more than 80% of people do not fit the category. However, it’s not worth arguing with someone who doesn’t argue honestly or even try to make logical arguments; I guess my retort can now only be: your definition of an average American is a hermaphrodite with one testicle and half a uterus, and you don’t understand how to use statistics. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/77 "2012-04-18T15:15:33Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > This just another example of Willard’s tone-deafness relating to regular tax payers. Sure, it is legal and millions of people do it every year, but they aren’t presidential candidates. You would think he would be sensitive to the issue of transparency, but he just doesn’t get it. It looks like he is trying to hide something, and it gives his adversaries just one more thing to add to the growing catalog of things to use when portraying Mitt as the out of touch rich guy.. Maybe he is delusional… that he would be treated fairly with regard to “transparency”. Didn’t Obama run on that or something?? ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880/78 "2012-04-19T00:25:30Z")
Lots of reasons. For example, many partnership statements aren’t available until after the April filing deadline. If Romney has partnership interests, there is no way he can file accurately in April. The more interesting disclosures would be of his tax returns back from his Bain Capital days. That 15% rate for 2010 might seem huge compared to some of the rates Romney paid in the 80’s and 90’s. One also wonders whether he ever met the Mormon tithing standard in any of those years. He didn’t in 2010, but could make the argument he had higher income than he knew and made it up in 2011. If over time, he never tithed, I think he’d be embarrassed in front of at least other LDS members. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-romneys-six-month-extension-on-his-2011-tax-return-be-an-issue/618880.md?page=3)