# Should Saddam be executed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936 "2003-12-14T12:17:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/41 "2003-12-15T00:54:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\* > Simon, your link isn’t a link, but with the reference to Bob, I’m assuming you think that what Saddam really needs is more slack. \*\* It’s just an underlining. It’s worth noting that people full of slack do not fill mass graves with their fellow human beings. (They may fill their beds with their fellow human beings, though. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/42 "2003-12-15T01:05:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I seriously doubt that anyone worshopped him to begin with. The notion that Hussein was leading some band of loyalists had more to do with Bush propaganda than reality. \*\* Tell us more… ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/43 "2003-12-15T01:11:15Z")
> [@](#): > > I can understand the pain and anger of the Iraqi people, but what’s their legal standing in this issue? I dunno. They could certainly charge him with murder. The fact that he was president, and wouldn’t allow the charge to stick to him before doesn’t mean it doesn’t have legal applicability. > [@](#): > > I presume you feel the same way about Hitler? You know, I’lll be pretty happy when all these santicmonious people end their suddenly found fling of pretending to care about human rights and about opposing dictators for the week. Although, I’d be much happier if it eventually did became sincere, and we could really and truly embark on a national policy against dictators and for human rights. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/44 "2003-12-15T01:15:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\*What Saddam did may have been _evil_ in the strongest sense of the word, but was it _illegal_ under contemporay Iraqi law? If not, how can the Iraqis legally try him? > > He’s definitly guilty of crimes against humanity, but wouldn’t that fall under the jurisdiction of the Geneva Convention? > \*\* The Geneva Convention is a treaty, not an organization. And as I recall, in WWII, it wasn’t illegal under German law to execute Jews and cripples. Since the victims were _civilians_, not combatants, there was no reason to prosecute the surviving German govt. for _those_ guys’ deaths, right? So, the same should go for Iraq, right? And the proper jurisdiction over “Crimes against Humanity” is, surprisingly enough, considered somewhat nebulous. As Amnesty International says, > [@](#): > > However, under long-settled rules of international law, any court may exercise universal jurisdiction over acts amounting to crimes against humanity, such as widespread or systematic murder, torture, forced disappearance, arbitrary detention, forcible transfer and persecution on political grounds, and heads of state and former heads of state do not enjoy immunity under international law - whether in international or national courts - for crimes under international law, including crimes against humanity and torture. > > In short, no sovereign state has the power under international law to enact national legislation providing immunity for any individual, including a head of state, from criminal or civil responsibility for crimes against humanity and no other state has the power to recognize such legislation. This follows from the > > “increasing acceptance that rules of international law are the foundation upon which the rights of states rest, and no longer merely limitations upon states’s rights which, in the absence of a rule of law to the contrary, are unlimited. Although there are extensive areas in which international law accords to states a large degree of freedom of action (for example, in matters of domestic jurisdiction), it is important that freedom is derived from a legal right and not from an assertion of unlimited will, and is subject ultimately to regulation within the legal framework of the international community.” (Sir Robert Jennings, QC & Sir Arthur Watts, KCMG, QC, 1 Oppenheim’s International Law (London and New York: Longman 9th ed. 1996), p. 12). …of course, Amnesty International isn’t a governing body, either. The closest thing we have is the ICC. And _they_ won’t even have jurisdiction over non-signatories to the [Rome Statute](http://www.un.org/law/icc/) until their next review in 2009. (_Maybe_. They might not _get_ increased jurisdiction in 2009) Letting Saddam go uncharged isn’t justice; nor would it even be following a moral “high ground” in following the letter, but not the spirit, of Geneva. It would be _pettifogging._ > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Aldebaran_ > In the supposition that this member is not an Iraqy citizen, how can the Colonial Idea be better expressed? Well thank you, sir or madam, you’ve shown me the error of my ways. …Never again will I dare to arrogantly think of the Iraqi people and the new Iraqi government as _allies and partners_ with the United States, or to so flippantly include them and the U.S. in a collective “we.” At least, not without a good sentence or two of explanation and apology over my insensitive use of a two-freaking-letter-word. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/45 "2003-12-15T02:01:30Z")
Whoever tries Saddam, I hope it is a thorough trial, so that we can find out exactly what he has done - separate the truth from rumour and have it documented. Would the new Iraqi legal system be able to cope with something as big as this? ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/46 "2003-12-15T02:13:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\* > You know, I’lll be pretty happy when all these santicmonious people end their suddenly found fling of pretending to care about human rights and about opposing dictators for the week. > Although, I’d be much happier if it eventually did became sincere, and we could really and truly embark on a national policy against dictators and for human rights. \*\* I agree with that, though I’m not sure if you’re having a go at me or agreeing with me… but, as far a I’m concerned: Pinochet was every bit as bad as Allende. or: Allende was every bit as bad as Pinochet. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/47 "2003-12-15T02:36:47Z")
Knowing the idiocy of the international community, they’d probably let Saddam off scot-free and instead decide to file charges against Bush. Well, maybe that’s a little exaggerated. While I don’t believe in the death penalty, I think it would be useful to try him before a court that had a death penalty available, so we could perhaps get him to talk as part of a deal to spare his life. In the meantime, he should be tortured by any and all methods available to us. If putting acid in somebody’s eyes is apparently the Islamic notion of sound justice, then nothing we do to torture him could seem inhumane compared to that perverse religion. If we keep him alive, I like the idea of humiliating him as much as possible. Maybe keep him in a secure cell at the zoo, right next to the monkey cages so they can throw feces at him. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/48 "2003-12-15T02:42:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*…nothing we do to torture him could seem inhumane compared to that perverse religion. > \*\* Ever heard of The Spanish Inquisition? ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/49 "2003-12-15T03:52:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mascaroni \* > \*\*Ever heard of The Spanish Inquisition? \*\* Yeah, the Spanish were pretty brutal there, and they were fighting Islam at the time too, so I can imagine that was one conflict where you’d rather die than get captured. I don’t think the Spanish are that way anymore though, so they would probably be just as shocked and apalled at the “acid in the eyes” thing. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/50 "2003-12-15T04:02:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ranchoth \* > \*\*The Geneva Convention is a treaty, not an organization. \*\* Yes, I know. Sorry if I didn’t explain myself clearly. What I meant to ask was whether the jurisdiction properly fell to an international court under the terms of the Geneva Convention. (Which you answered below.) > [@](#): > > \*\*And as I recall, in WWII, it wasn’t illegal under German law to execute Jews and cripples. Since the victims were _civilians_, not combatants, there was no reason to prosecute the surviving German govt. for _those_ guys’ deaths, right? So, the same should go for Iraq, right? \*\* But as I understand, no Nazi ever went before a German court to be tried for his crimes. (I may be wrong about this-- please elucidate me if I am.) They were tried by a multi-national court. Why would it be better for the Iraqis to try him. I think at this point, the sentance is a foregone conclusion. The guy’s going to die, no matter who presides over the court. Its my opinion that the entire world should be able to voice their condemnation for these kinds of acts, rather than restricting it to the Iraqis. After all, it’s alleged that other countries suffered from his rule. (Alleged payments to Palestinian suicide-bombers, for example.) Personally, I think a worse penalty for his crimes would be to have to live in prison (especially an Iraqi prison) for the rest of his life, rather than a swift, painless death. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/51 "2003-12-15T04:02:24Z")
I hope he’ll be confined to an iron cage in the courtroom, as “Citizen X” (the Russian serial killer) was in his trial. The dehumanizing, degrading symbolism would be significant – and justified. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/52 "2003-12-15T04:02:28Z")
Actually, Iran might have a legitimate case for taking Saddam to an International War Crimes trial, as it’s been fairly well-established that he authorized the use of chemical weapons during the Iran-Iraq war in the 80’s. [cite from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute](http://projects.sipri.se/cbw/research/factsheet-1984.html) This action also violated the Geneva Convention, to which Iraq is a signatory. Of course, Iran will probably not get a chance to try Saddam, although the UN may well want to take up their cudgels on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/53 "2003-12-15T04:12:56Z")
re. the potential for internationalist complications posed by Iran and Kuwait wanting to press war-crimes charges: The Hague doesn’t allow for the death penalty. OTOH, those parties might be pressing for disclosure of the results of our interrogation of SH, as part of a quid pro quo for allowing a future Iraqi government to try him in-house. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/54 "2003-12-15T05:53:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > **As far as I know, Saddam has done nothing meriting a parking ticket – let alone death - to the US or the UK, so I’d probably think it’s not for the winners in this war of aggression to determine appropriate out punishment(s).** > > -Attacked Americans defending Kuwait. > -Shot at American jets in the no fly zone. > -Attempted to murder an ex President of the United States. > -Training camps for terrorists. > > \*\*How about a re-constituted (by Iraqi’s) Iraq decide and we keep the hell out of it ? \*\* There is no YOU in WE. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/55 "2003-12-15T06:04:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*Knowing the idiocy of the international community, they’d probably let Saddam off scot-free and instead decide to file charges against Bush. > > Well, maybe that’s a little exaggerated. > \*\* You think!?!?!?!!? :smack: :wally ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/56 "2003-12-15T11:55:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > You’re apparently serious, so I’ll give you a quick response: Thanks awfully. Glad you could spare the time in, say, the hunt for WMD at Sadam’s Palaces, or in those tunnels around Tikrit, or, or, or, . . . **Sam Stone** , I’m sure you’re a lovely fella but, as you demonstrate every single week, real-world politics ain’t your strong suit. Thanks anyway. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/57 "2003-12-15T12:08:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*I don’t think the Spanish are that way anymore though, so they would probably be just as shocked and apalled at the “acid in the eyes” thing. \*\* A bit more recently than you might think. The [garotte](http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/garrotte.html) as execution implement was only outlawed in Spain in 1974. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/58 "2003-12-15T13:18:35Z")
We can wring our hands all we want about ‘Islamic’ justice, and fret about whether the Iraqi legals system is up to the task. But it’s fairly plain that Bush has nailed his colours to the mast. He was going to do this alone and without any international organisation if need be, and he was doing it for the peoples of Iraqi. Whoops, we’ll just let the presentation about the WMDs shuffle quietly off the stage and hope everyone’s forgotten it. If he lifts Saddam out of Iraqi to face external justice, be it US or international, he will have once more changed the tune that the American occupation is marching too. Frankly I wouldn’t put it past him, but it would be the end of his little charade in Iraqi if he did. Taking him to the US will draw international condemnation and the disgust of the Iraqis. It would be a trial for Daddy Bush’s benefit. Any trial he does face in Iraq I think will involve international and US advisors and observors anyway. Everyone will expect to be there to see justice done. It will be a long and massive undertaking. He will not simply be led in the front of a closed court and then taken out the back and shot. The Iraqis may choose not to kill him. But if they do, no matter how we feel about capital punishment (I’m firmly against it) we have absolutely no come back on them while we have not raised any objections to it’s routine use in other countries and, ahem, the US. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/59 "2003-12-15T13:20:32Z")
I echo **Lissa** : What actions of Saddam are or were **illegal under Iraqi law?** I suspect that the primary charge will simply be that of _murder_, perhaps of his political enemies way back when he took power. This will be the easiest to prove, and the most difficult for his lawyers to defend by questioning the court’s jurisdiction. I would be very surprised if it was illegal under Iraqi law to fire missiles at enemy planes or bullets at enemy soldiers. Furthermore, if it is _international_ law we are talking about, then Saddam himself was the target of several missile strikes aimed at his assassination: who is prosecutable for _these_ infractions? On a strictly legal basis, my guess is that Saddam cannot be prosecuted in Iraq for his crimes against humanity, only for his mundane murders of specific people. Similarly, the ICC at the Hague could _only_ prosecute him for the crimes against humanity such as his alleged genocidal campaigns against the Kurds or the Marsh Arabs, _not_ simply “being a tyrannical dictator”. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/60 "2003-12-15T14:26:31Z")
Well, maybe ol’ Saddam might use this defense: Dear kindly, Mr. Bushie You’ve got to understand It is my bringing uppie That gets me out of hand My mother dated rabbis My father is a schmeck Holy Moses, that’s why I’m a wreck! Dear President Bushie, I’m really upset I’ve never got the love that ever Shiite should get I am not dictator, I’m misunderstood Deep down inside me there is good! (there is good!) There is good, there is good, there is untapped good Deep in side, the worst of me is good! (That’s a mighty touching story) (I’ll tell it to the world!) (Just tell it to the Hague!) Dear kindly, judge, your Honor, My soldiers are no fun. Hid the weapons of mass panic, I’ve only got a gun. Though unanimously chosen, Approval can’t be had! Golly Cripey, that’s why I’m so bad! Right! President Bushie, you are such a square This kid don’t need a judge, he needs an analyst’s care. Hey, President Bushie, haven’t you heard? He’s psychologically disturbed! (I’m disturbed! I’m disturbed, I’m disturbed, I am most disturbed. Yes, I’m psychologically disturbed.) (Hear ye, hear ye! It is the opinion of this court that Saddam here is depraved on account he ain’t got a normal home.) (Hey, I’m depraved on account I’m deprived!) I gassed all of the Kurdies Most people don’t have work I rigged my own elections Most think that I’m a jerk I’ve guzzled all my aid funds Our living standard’s less It’s no wonder that I’m such a mess You! President Bushie, you are such a slob This boy don’t need a shrink he needs a good honest job Out of his palace, to work with a kick ‘Cause he’s sociologically sick! (I am sick! I am sick, I am sick, I am sick, sick, sick Like I’m sociologically sick) (In my opinion this boy don’t need his head shrunk at all. He has a sociological disease) (Hey, I have a social disease!) (So send him to a social worker!) Dear Mrs. Social Worker, they say go get a job Like working for Al Quaeda, or maybe run a mob I am not antisocial, I’m only antiwork Holy Moses, that’s why I’m a jerk Eek! President Bushie, you’re too soft again! This boy don’t need a job, he needs a year in the pen! He is a delinquent, not misunderstood Deep down inside him, he’s no good! (I’m no good! I’m no good, I’m no good, I’m no earthly good Deep inside, I’m totally no good) The problem is he’s lazy The problem is he drinks The problem is he’s crazy The problem is he stinks The problem is he’s growing The problem is he’s grown Bushie, I’ve got problems of my own! Dear President Bushie, I’m down on m’knees No country wants a leader with a with social disease Dear President Bushie, whate’er shall I do? Someday, President Bush, I’ll…bomb you! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936.md?page=4)