# Should Saddam be executed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936 "2003-12-14T12:17:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/61 "2003-12-15T14:29:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > \*\*I echo **Lissa** : What actions of Saddam are or were **illegal under Iraqi law?** > > I suspect that the primary charge will simply be that of _murder_, perhaps of his political enemies way back when he took power. This will be the easiest to prove, and the most difficult for his lawyers to defend by questioning the court’s jurisdiction. > > I would be very surprised if it was illegal under Iraqi law to fire missiles at enemy planes or bullets at enemy soldiers. Furthermore, if it is _international_ law we are talking about, then Saddam himself was the target of several missile strikes aimed at his assassination: who is prosecutable for _these_ infractions? > > On a strictly legal basis, my guess is that Saddam cannot be prosecuted in Iraq for his crimes against humanity, only for his mundane murders of specific people. Similarly, the ICC at the Hague could _only_ prosecute him for the crimes against humanity such as his alleged genocidal campaigns against the Kurds or the Marsh Arabs, _not_ simply “being a tyrannical dictator”. \*\* Wha huh? Gassing thousands of your own people and mass excecutions wouldn’t be considered a crime in your own country? What are you basing your opinion on? They don’t need the Hague, Kofi Annan or the combined wisdom of this web site to prosecute him. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/62 "2003-12-15T14:46:02Z")
**Magiver** , the “gassings” (_eg._ at [Halabja in 1988](http://forums.transnationale.org/viewtopic.php?t=1458)) are not quite so cut-and-dried an issue as you may think (there is a possibility that they may have been unintentional or even _Iranian_ in origin). As for the mass executions, well, many countries execute an enormous number of people every year: > [@](#): > > Amnesty International received reports of 1,700 executions in China, over 100 executions in the Democratic Republic of Congo, 68 executions in the USA and 66 executions in Iran . These four countries alone accounted for 86% of all executions recorded by Amnesty International worldwide in 1998. Amnesty International also received reports of hundreds of executions in Iraq but was unable to confirm most of these reports. The issue here is whether these executions were in violation of Iraqi Law, which may indeed _not_ be the case if Saddam altered any constitution by decree. Like I said, Saddam may be _tried_ for these acts, but what he is eventually convicted of may well be simple specific cases of muder. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/63 "2003-12-15T16:30:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > Wha huh? Gassing thousands of your own people . . . This phrase long ago became an empty cliché purely designed to generate misleading emotionally-driven responses. If you mean by “his own people” Iraqis, then it means nothing to him or them, they were enemies just as much as are/were Americans, or anyone in, say, a civil war. Mainly civilians, but enemies as well. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/64 "2003-12-15T16:47:15Z")
Seriously, are some folks arguing over the legales of whether or not SH committed crimes against Iragis? Is this Bizarro world or what? I liked the idea I heard put forth by an Iraqi expatriate in San Diego who suggested that Sadam be put in a cage in Bagdad and spat upon until he drowned. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/65 "2003-12-15T16:56:28Z")
**Gangster Octopus** In the real world(GITMO not being there) people have to be charged and found guilty before punishment. If the people in charge of Iraq put in place a method such as the one you said you like they’d be no better than Saddam. I betya he thinks he had very good reason to be a cunt to his people. What’s yours? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/66 "2003-12-15T17:08:37Z")
There’s an implication in that last question which I did not mean. Sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/67 "2003-12-15T17:21:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Seriously, are some folks arguing over the legales of whether or not SH committed crimes against [Iraqis]? No, we are merely asking _precisely_ which acts, and precisely which laws such acts violated, are we talking about here? There is _no question_ that he was a brutal leader who tortured and executed his subjects without what elsewhere would be called “due process”. There would certainly be scope for him to be tried under _international_ law, were Iraq to be bound by the ICC. But he is to be tried under **Iraqi** law, of which he has effectively been the sole arbiter for two decades. Is that law simply to be changed so that he can be found guilty of breaking it? This is what appears to be in the pipeline, which brings to mind a certain antipodean marsupial. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/68 "2003-12-15T17:25:41Z")
yojimbo, No offense, taken I want him to be tried, of course, but there seems to be a curiosity on this board that there is some sort of legal loophole that Saddam may not have broken any Iraqi laws, which, I find ludicrous. I suppose one may not find anything written into Iraqi law explicitly. But it is obvious to eveyone that Saddam committed murder, torture, he raided the countries wealth for his pronographic palaces, etc. It seems to be so much hair-splitting is all. He may think he has perfectly good reason to do what he did, that hardly makes it legal. What does “GITMO not being there” mean? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/69 "2003-12-15T17:49:01Z")
> [@](#): > > But it is obvious to eveyone that Saddam committed murder, torture, he raided the countries wealth for his pronographic palaces, etc. It seems to be so much hair-splitting is all. He may think he has perfectly good reason to do what he did, that hardly makes it legal. What is illegal to us is of no real relevance to a set of laws that Saddam had full control over for 20 years. No one is suggesting that Saddam wasn’t a brutal dictator, its more like people are concerned that when he does go to trial, it will be for offences that he _can_ be found guilty for. Seriously, there are some people here who are so determined to get Saddam that they are ready to assume that anyone who questions the process are making excuses for him. I wan’t to see Saddam recieve justice, even the justice he denied from his people for so long. After that, Mugabwe. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/70 "2003-12-15T18:14:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*Yeah, the Spanish were pretty brutal there, and they were fighting Islam at the time too, so I can imagine that was one conflict where you’d rather die than get captured. > > I don’t think the Spanish are that way anymore though, so they would probably be just as shocked and apalled at the “acid in the eyes” thing. \*\* I was referring to your statement “that perverse religion”. A bit of an insult to the vast majority of peaceful law-abiding Moslems… ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/71 "2003-12-15T18:23:48Z")
GITMO, Guantanamo Bay where lots of people have been interned for a long time without charge, trial or legal representation of any real kind. The US should be better than this. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/72 "2003-12-15T18:25:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*This phrase long ago became an empty cliché purely designed to generate misleading emotionally-driven responses. \*\* > The truth is never an empty cliché’ and saying it is doesn’t make it so. It is a cliché’d technique to present something in a dismissive manner in an attempt to elevate yourself above any rational thought. > > \*\*If you mean by “his own people” Iraqis, then it means nothing to him or them, they were enemies just as much as are/were Americans, or anyone in, say, a civil war. Mainly civilians, but enemies as well. \*\* Really? The 5,000 dead civilians killed en masse were his “enemies” in a civil war? I think the survivors would disagree. Let me know when you find one who doesn’t. But I agree with you, wiping out a village with gas probably meant nothing to Saddam. When the Iraqi’s get him back I’m sure they will pin a medal on him. After all, he got 100% of the vote. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/73 "2003-12-15T18:32:25Z")
IIRC, there was an exception to Iraqi law for the (whatever Hussein’s title was). He was not chargeable with any offense. I’ll link to a translation of Iraqi law later today. I;ve just skmmed through the thing. It may’ve only applied to financial dealings though. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/74 "2003-12-15T18:36:00Z")
**Magiver** , did you actually read the [link](http://forums.transnationale.org/viewtopic.php?t=1458), written by a senior CIA analyst at the time of the gassing? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/75 "2003-12-15T18:43:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > \*\ ***Magiver** , the “gassings” (_eg._ at [Halabja in 1988](http://forums.transnationale.org/viewtopic.php?t=1458)) are not quite so cut-and-dried an issue as you may think (there is a possibility that they may have been unintentional or even _Iranian_ in origin). > > As for the mass executions, well, many countries execute an enormous number of people every year: The issue here is whether these executions were in violation of Iraqi Law, which may indeed _not_ be the case if Saddam altered any constitution by decree. > > Like I said, Saddam may be _tried_ for these acts, but what he is eventually convicted of may well be simple specific cases of muder. \*\* I would be surprised if the prosecution attempts specific cases because it avoids the larger issue. The trial will be public and the evidence will be ugly. And your point regarding Iraqi law belies the fact that Saddam WAS the law in Iraq. If you assume the atrocities are true, there couldn’t be any law justifying them. A leader can’t just declare rape and murder legal acts and hire goons to carry them out. The only problem I can see is whether they will rely on the laws prior to military coup or are they going to use the laws that are newly created? I think a lot of the dissenting discussion here revolves around people who don’t think Saddam did anything wrong. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/76 "2003-12-15T19:00:13Z")
> [@](#): > > I think a lot of the dissenting discussion here revolves around people who don’t think Saddam did anything wrong. Who are these people? ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/77 "2003-12-15T19:05:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*A bit more recently than you might think. The [garotte](http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/garrotte.html) as execution implement was only outlawed in Spain in 1974. \*\* Im getting way off the OP here… but I’ve got a vague memory of the Spanish executing a GRAPO terrorist who was severely brain damaged. There was a lot of controversy at the time about it, I’m not sure if the sentence was carried out. Anyone remember? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/78 "2003-12-15T20:55:05Z")
Personally I believe SH was an evil SOB but I believe he is entitled to a fair trial and I am afraid he may not get it. Those who say “we know what he did and we can dispense with the formalities” are, in my eyes, as good as him. Barbarians. I find it hard to believe Saddam may receive a fair trial. I am more inclined to believe it wll be a kanguroo court which would make Judge Roy Bean proud. After all he did come from the Texas school of expeditive law, which the current US prez so much admires. So let us see. Saddam Hussein is accused of using poison gas. Well, yes. He probably _did_. And the USA knows it well because the USA aided him directly in doing so. Not in a generic, indirect, way but with intelligence directly necessary for each act. The fact that SH has to be found guilty of this while those who aided him cannot even be question makes the exercise a mockery. Or is there any chance we may see some Americans accused with him? Saddam Hussein imprisoned people without due process. Hmmm, where’s Gitmo again? If it’s legal in the USA I can’t see how I _has_ to be illegal in Iraq. Saddam Hussein killed many innocent civilian Iraqis. And so have American forces and so do American forces continue to do. SH had his reasons and the US has its own reasons. I do not accpt either of them but to have the USA accusing SH in this case seems somewhat ironic. I cannot see an impartial trial taking place. Whether he is judged by the USA or by the Iraqi puppet government it will most probably be a charade which will end in revenge, not justice. I say “probably” because I leave room for the unexpected but I expect the result will not be closure but more tension between sunnis and shiites. Revenge does not bring closure and healing and Iraq needs them desperately. I believe the place where SH could have got impartial justice would have been the The Hague but neither the USA nor the Iraqi enemies of SH would take the chance. The USA could not possible accept handing Saddam Hussein to an international, impartial, tribunal. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2003, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/79 "2003-12-15T22:23:28Z")
I want everyone to understand, before reading this post, that it is an intellectual exercise and does not really represent any lust for retribution or revenge that I may have; I’m also acutely aware that the idea poses a number of grave moral and ethical concerns… However, I would like to discuss the possibility of performing lobotomies (or something like that) on criminals convicted of such gross and terrible acts as those of which Saddam Hussein is accused. Killing such a man might make him a martyr, imprisoning him might make him the focus of a rescue attempt or a bargaining piece for terrorist actions involving hostages. Rendering him a drooling, utterly incapacitated vegetable and maintaining him alive makes rescue pointless; he isn’t dead to become a martyr, nor is he an object worthy of reverence or hero worship anymore. It may also satisfy those who wish to see him suffer (even if, in fact, he is beyond experiencing suffering) I kind of shocked myself that I could even intellectually contemplate such a punishment and from a moral/ethical POV, I would find the idea reprehensible. I positively welcome your harsh criticism and comment. ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936/80 "2003-12-16T00:45:15Z")
> [@](#): > > What Saddam did may have been evil in the strongest sense of the word, but was it illegal under contemporay Iraqi law? If not, how can the Iraqis legally try him? > He’s definitly guilty of crimes against humanity, but wouldn’t that fall under the jurisdiction of the Geneva Convention? > I can understand the pain and anger of the Iraqi people, but what’s their legal standing in this issue? Well, both after WWII and after the GDR was integrated into West Germany, people who had previously commited atrocities were put on trial and the excuse “What was legal yesterday cannot be illegal today.” didn’t count. In that light, I could see a justification for a trial in Iraq by Iraquies (sp?). **Sailor’s** concerns about Saddam not getting a fair trial seem a definite possibility though, especially considering how many people here would like to discard justice in favour of retribution already. > [@](#): > > You’re apparently serious, so I’ll give you a quick response: > > 1. Attempting to assassinate a U.S. President. > 2. Harboring Abu Nidal. > 3. Ordering attacks on U.S. forces while they were legally engaged in enforcing U.N. resolutions (firing on planes in the no-fly zone). > 4. (probably) Plotting attacks against the legal occupying authority of Iraq. > > And the list goes on. What is this legal occupying authority of Iraq, that you speak of? Winning a war of aggression doesn’t make the troops Bush sent, the legal occupying authority. Cut the word “legal” and you may have a case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-saddam-be-executed/218936.md?page=5)