# Should Scientology be destroyed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263 "2011-10-11T04:59:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/41 "2011-10-11T22:27:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > No; by that argument, we shouldn’t teach children _blatant lies_. > > That simplifies everything because everyone agrees on what’s a lie and what isn’t. The believers clearly know that their religions have no factual evidence for them; that’s why they demand it be taken on faith. > [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t want to be put in the position of defending teaching religion to children because I didn’t like growing up with that and I don’t plan to do it myself; I think I’m more troubled by the assertion that children can handle it. Can we teach children politics or history? Because both of those are awfully debatable, too. Can their minds handle that? They can’t handle being taught blatant lies about history and politics; much like religion, they tend to grow up to be irrationally dedicated to those lies. And religion isn’t “debatable”; it’s flat out blatant nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/42 "2011-10-11T22:38:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The believers clearly know that their religions have no factual evidence for them; that’s why they demand it be taken on faith. You said “blatant lies,” not statements that have no factual evidence. > [@](#): > > They can’t handle being taught blatant lies about history and politics; much like religion, they tend to grow up to be irrationally dedicated to those lies. That makes sense to me. I was asking **gonzomax** why he signed out a particular kind of lie. > [@](#): > > And religion isn’t “debatable”; it’s flat out blatant nonsense. Gee, that statement seems highly debatable to me. I seem to recall you’ve debated it with people in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/43 "2011-10-11T22:40:10Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I don’t think it’s particularly crazier than any other religion, so no. It shouldn’t be singled out. > > But I’m up for a plan to destroy ALL religions! The beliefs themselves are… well, they’re whackadoodle but as you say religion as a whole tends to have a whackadoodle quality to it, by definition. Their practices however are particularly vile - segregating people from their families and forced isolation, blackmail, badgering, pseudo-brainwashing sessions and don’t you dare try and leave the cult because that’s when they get _real_ nasty. They will \*thoroughly \*fuck your life. ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/44 "2011-10-11T22:41:35Z")
If we are going to start destroying religious organizations, I think we should start with Westboro. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/45 "2011-10-11T22:52:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You said “blatant lies,” not statements that have no factual evidence. Statements with no evidence that violate physical laws, are logically contradictory and violate known historical fact are blatant lies if anything is. > [@Marley23](#): > > Gee, that statement seems highly debatable to me. I seem to recall you’ve debated it with people in the past. Because they are irrational (and other reasons I can’t mention in GD). Obviously I meant “not debatable” in the sense that one side, namely theirs, is blatantly in the wrong. All you are doing is trying to redefine the term “debatable” so that religion is privileged. If I said that “the nonexistence of Santa Claus isn’t debatable” I doubt you’d leap to the same kind of defense of any Santa believers who showed up. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/46 "2011-10-11T22:59:57Z")
The way to start on something like this is to not single out the celebrities of the cult but rather to out the former members who have lost homes, husbands, friends and family due to scientology crap. Thing is, that’s already been done by undercover investigative shows and documentarians, and the snowball hasn’t gotten any bigger. People have been becoming more aware of some of the snide tactics. Wasn’t there a school with some kind of job fair or club fair and a scientology tent was up disguised as meditation or something like that? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/47 "2011-10-12T01:47:27Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Their practices however are particularly vile - segregating people from their families and forced isolation, blackmail, badgering, pseudo-brainwashing sessions and don’t you dare try and leave the cult because that’s when they get _real_ nasty. They will \*thoroughly \*fuck your life. Yes. This is what separates them from mainstream religions in America and I believe it is a real stretch to draw an equivalency between the two. Also, bringing up the Inquisition is absurd. That happened 500 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/48 "2011-10-12T02:24:50Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Yes. This is what separates them from mainstream religions in America and I believe it is a real stretch to draw an equivalency between the two. It doesn’t sound very different from “Jesus camps” and forced “therapy” to “cure” children of homosexuality. Both of which have been known to end in fatalities. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/49 "2011-10-12T02:53:04Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Yes. This is what separates them from mainstream religions in America and I believe it is a real stretch to draw an equivalency between the two. Also, bringing up the Inquisition is absurd. That happened 500 years ago. I also mentioned that Islam proscribes death for apostates. Any response to that? If we were making a bigger list I could mention the abuse of thousands of children by Roman Catholic priests. That’s not doctrine, of course, but doctrine allowed it to continue - the RCC doesn’t think its priests should be subject to secular law. And like I said, a lot of religious groups practice shunning just like Scientology does (if you leave the faith, you’re dead to them). Scientology _might_ be worse than mainstream religions _in the West_, but its worst practices are not that different from those of other religious groups. I think if you talk to Dopers who have came from fundamentalist families or extreme sects and left the fold, you’ll find their experiences are not that different from those of ex-Scientologists. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It doesn’t sound very different from “Jesus camps” and forced “therapy” to “cure” children of homosexuality. Both of which have been known to end in fatalities. Exactly. None of which is to say this stuff is OK- just that it’s hard to justify some kind of ban on Scientology without a ban on other religions, and that’s something most people won’t even consider. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/50 "2011-10-12T02:58:36Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > The more I read about Scientology, the more I am amazed that something like it exists. Should a concerted effort be made to dismantle the organization and interfere with its activities to the point where it ceases to exist as a unified “religion”? It seems to do so much bad and so little good; it preys upon weak minded people; it extorts and bullies them into staying members. If it can’t be banned legally, shouldn’t a more ferocious campaign be waged against it intellectually? :dubious: And then our Thetan Overlords will find some **other** way to supply their diet of souls. Don’t rock the boat! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/51 "2011-10-12T03:07:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The Inquisition used the rack and Islam proscribes death for apostates. I’d rather be sued. I don’t know how often Scientology sues members who leave the fold, but I know they practice shunning, and a bunch of religious groups do that. I’m currently reading _A Piece of Blue Sky_. It’s a LOT worse than just being sued. Look up “Operation Freakout” and “Fair Game”. Look up the Sea Org and how they punish people who make mistakes. Even small children. Note: I’m not saying it should be banned, but the idea that, “oh, all religions are equally bad!” As I said in a [previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14255839&postcount=47): > [@](#): > > Thing is though, if I were to go into a Catholic church, and start asking one of the priests there about Catholicism, about Jesus and God and the Resurrection and such, he’d be more than happy to tell me about it, let me know the teachings of the church, etc. He wouldn’t charge me anything for it, and for the most part, he probably wouldn’t put all that much pressure on me to convert, other than a “Why don’t you come to Mass on Sunday, see what it’s all about, we’re always happy to have you, etc”. (Catholics aren’t big on prothletyzing). > If I were to go to a Scientology Center though, and started asking them about Scientology, about Xenu and Thetans and all that, they’d tell me they’re only rumors, and make me buy a bunch of books and stuff if I want to know anything else. > > For Catholicism to be like that, it would be as if they made you PAY for years to read the Bible, and kept parts of it secret, and it was only after you had paid out of the ass, and spent years taking vitamins and using a lie detector test, THEN you found out about Jesus. And where told the only reason it took you so long to know is that if you found out about him earlier, it would destroy you. L. Ron Hubbard was a known fraud who came up with this crap specifically to make money. He lied about his own background, he was a criminal, and he screwed his own family over. I’m not defending abuses by other religions, BUT, it seems around here that the only religions that exist are ultra fundamentalists. Which isn’t true. Scientology isn’t really a religion so much as a money-making scam disguised as a religion. I doubt Hubbard even believed in it himself. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/52 "2011-10-12T03:08:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Statements with no evidence that violate physical laws, are logically contradictory and violate known historical fact are blatant lies if anything is. I think those stories are false. That doesn’t make them deliberate lies. > [@](#): > > Because they are irrational (and other reasons I can’t mention in GD). Obviously I meant “not debatable” in the sense that one side, namely theirs, is blatantly in the wrong. All you are doing is trying to redefine the term “debatable” so that religion is privileged. While I share your general opinion of religion, I’m not trying to redefine the term debatable. I’m pointing out you can’t start from the point that it’s false and then declare that it’s not debatable because it’s false. That’s assuming the conclusion. And none of this is specific to Scientology, which makes me think it’s a better subject for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/53 "2011-10-12T03:13:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The Inquisition used the rack and Islam proscribes death for apostates. I’d rather be sued. I don’t know how often Scientology sues members who leave the fold, but I know they practice shunning, and a bunch of religious groups do that. I’m currently reading _A Piece of Blue Sky_. It’s a LOT worse than just being sued. Look up “Operation Freakout” and “Fair Game”. Look up the Sea Org and how they punish people who make mistakes. Even small children. Note: I’m not saying it should be banned, but the idea that, “oh, all religions are equally bad!” As I said in a [previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14255839&postcount=47): > [@](#): > > Thing is though, if I were to go into a Catholic church, and start asking one of the priests there about Catholicism, about Jesus and God and the Resurrection and such, he’d be more than happy to tell me about it, let me know the teachings of the church, etc. He wouldn’t charge me anything for it, and for the most part, he probably wouldn’t put all that much pressure on me to convert, other than a “Why don’t you come to Mass on Sunday, see what it’s all about, we’re always happy to have you, etc”. (Catholics aren’t big on prothletyzing). > If I were to go to a Scientology Center though, and started asking them about Scientology, about Xenu and Thetans and all that, they’d tell me they’re only rumors, and make me buy a bunch of books and stuff if I want to know anything else. > > For Catholicism to be like that, it would be as if they made you PAY for years to read the Bible, and kept parts of it secret, and it was only after you had paid out of the ass, and spent years taking vitamins and using a lie detector test, THEN you found out about Jesus. And where told the only reason it took you so long to know is that if you found out about him earlier, it would destroy you. L. Ron Hubbard was a known fraud who came up with this crap specifically to make money. He lied about his own background, he was a criminal, and he screwed his own family over. I’m not defending abuses by other religions, BUT, it seems around here that the only religions that exist are ultra fundamentalists. Which isn’t true. Scientology isn’t really a religion so much as a money-making scam disguised as a religion. I doubt Hubbard even believed in it himself. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/54 "2011-10-12T03:16:35Z")
They’re definitely a cult and they’ve definitely got some fucked up practices. (And no, I don’t condone, “re-orientation therapy”. That should be outlawed too, so don’t even go there. Nor do I condone so-called female circumcision. There are always parts of religions that shouldn’t be tolerated. Scientology just happens to be an organization that’s more like the Mafia than a religion.) Priests committing child molestation is not a manditory part of the Catholic doctrine. Making people sit in a chain lockers for up to two weeks IS a part of the Sea Org’s. Even for five-year-olds. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/55 "2011-10-12T03:17:48Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I’m currently reading _A Piece of Blue Sky_. It’s a LOT worse than just being sued. Look up “Operation Freakout” and “Fair Game”. Look up the Sea Org and how they punish people who make mistakes. Even small children. I’m aware of them. I’ve read a lot of the St. Petersburg Times’ reporting, some stuff at Operation Clambake, and other things. I don’t think their behavior is particularly different from other fanatical groups. > [@](#): > > L. Ron Hubbard was a known fraud who came up with this crap specifically to make money. I know Hubbard was a fraud. He’s also dead, so I’m not sure his motives are relevant to the issue. > [@](#): > > He lied about his own background, he was a criminal, and he screwed his own family over. Do you think those characteristics make him unique among religious founders? I don’t. > [@](#): > > Scientology isn’t really a religion so much as a money-making scam disguised as a religion. I doubt Hubbard even believed in it himself. Until his last years when he was drugged out of his mind, he probably didn’t believe it. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/56 "2011-10-12T03:19:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And like I said, a lot of religious groups practice shunning just like Scientology does (if you leave the faith, you’re dead to them). True, but Scientology takes it a couple notches further, I think. There’s shunning, and then there’s unrelenting seek and destroy. As for Islam calling for the death of apostates, well, yes. That’s because the places where that happen are backwards dumps, by and large. Scientology does its extreme thing right in SoCal. Context matters. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/57 "2011-10-12T03:23:20Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Priests committing child molestation is not a manditory part of the Catholic doctrine. I said that myself. It’s also true that the belief in priestly authority and the RCC’s position that priests should not be subject to secular law allowed the abuses to go on. > [@](#): > > Making people sit in a chain lockers for up to two weeks IS a part of the Sea Org’s. Even for five-year-olds. And most Scientologists aren’t in Sea Org, so where does that leave the issue? And how does that compare something like prohibiting girls from going to school? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/58 "2011-10-12T03:29:53Z")
Where did I condone forbidding girls from going to school? Extremism in ANY religion is wrong. And that’s equally wrong and should be dealt with too. And yes, I read what you posted as far as the church’s actions reguarding the molestation scandal. But some people still feel compelled to say it’s the same. The church is wrong there, but I don’t feel it’s as evil as Scientology. No, not everyone is in Sea Org. However, there are still similiar, if not quite as extreme, practices in the organization. (I’m still reading the book, and haven’t gotten to the chapter on “Fair Game” quite yet) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/59 "2011-10-12T03:39:43Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Where did I condone forbidding girls from going to school? Extremism in ANY religion is wrong. And that’s equally wrong and should be dealt with too. We’re not arguing about whether or not it’s wrong- we all agree that it is. The question I am asking is that, since Scientology’s repulsive practices are pretty similar to the repulsive practices of other religions - bilking people, demanding blind obedience, controlling people’s lives, shunning of ex-believers - why is it that Scientology needs to be destroyed and other religions don’t? I think Tom Cruise is a dickhead, but I think he’s allowed to throw his money away on a stupid fake religion if he wants to. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263/60 "2011-10-12T03:40:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > By that argument, we shouldn’t teach children anything. > Why are Scientology and Mormonism worse than any other religion? Just because they’re newer than Judaism and Christianity? How does that follow. Religion is inculcated in children for the purpose of keeping them in the faith. Teaching them arithmetic does not do that, Nor will reading skills do that. Indoctrination is not mere education. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-scientology-be-destroyed/599263.md?page=4)